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>The more nuanced your position, the more difficult it is to express in the short amount of time that you may have to speak. My experienced with nuanced positi

>The more nuanced your position, the more difficult it is to express in the short amount of time that you may have to speak. My experienced with nuanced positions I have held and heard others present is they are either overthought and as a result overly complicated OR the presenter is really a salesperson and has something for you to buy.

willcipriano 3y ago
I agree. Clarity of speech is representative of clarity of mind, "complicated" ideas are often half baked and use the supposed complexity to hide the flaws in the argument.
- qwytw 3y ago
  Or those 'simple' arguments might only make sense in a vacuum when no real word implications are considered. Of course it depends on the discussion and the topic but actual problems (which are worth discussion) almost never have simple or straightforward answer.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    The opposite of simple is complicated. Complex ideas are fine, complicated ideas are generally nonsense.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      The initial argument was about a time limit. Complex ideas certainly can be expressed in simple terms which might be sufficient for a presentation or a performative 'discussion' (like a debate). If you're having a good faith discussion/argument? Well, it depends..
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        If you idea is complex provide a summary and allow others to ask questions. People with complicated ideas tend to get upset when you do that. Recently the socratic method was called a misinformation tactic in the media, to serve as an example of this.
        qwytw 3y ago
        > People with complicated ideas tend to get upset when you do that. Presumably because they don't actually understand their 'ideas' themselves and not so much because they are complicated (I don't agree that most complicated ideas are nonsense it's just that it's rarely possible to discuss them without splitting them up/narrowing down to specific aspects. So chances are that a person who proposes one is incapable of doing either of those things so we end up with nonsense). But yeah that's a definitely a good approach
    - fragmede 3y ago
      Do you have a simple explanation for the difference between complex and complicated?
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        String theory is complex. Any argument about US constitution that isn't just a literal reading of the text is complicated. Ask Hawking about string theory and he can answer your question. Ask a judge why civil asset forfeiture is constitutional and after a while he will refuse to talk to you anymore and insist that your uneducated mind can not possibly comprehend this complexity that he is unable to articulate or defend.
mitthrowaway2 3y ago
Widely-known concepts are like black holes; they swallow anything that dares come near. A nuanced idea doesn't have to be a complicated one, in absolute terms; it is just one that happens to have enough surface-level similarities to locate it close to a different, but much more widely-publicized idea, such that it's necessary to explain the differences carefully or else the listener's mind will leap to treating them as identical. This takes even more careful and time-consuming explanation if there is a debate partner who deliberately attempts to conflate such ideas.

willcipriano 3y ago

I agree. Clarity of speech is representative of clarity of mind, "complicated" ideas are often half baked and use the supposed complexity to hide the flaws in the argument.

qwytw 3y ago
Or those 'simple' arguments might only make sense in a vacuum when no real word implications are considered. Of course it depends on the discussion and the topic but actual problems (which are worth discussion) almost never have simple or straightforward answer.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  The opposite of simple is complicated. Complex ideas are fine, complicated ideas are generally nonsense.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    The initial argument was about a time limit. Complex ideas certainly can be expressed in simple terms which might be sufficient for a presentation or a performative 'discussion' (like a debate). If you're having a good faith discussion/argument? Well, it depends..
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      If you idea is complex provide a summary and allow others to ask questions. People with complicated ideas tend to get upset when you do that. Recently the socratic method was called a misinformation tactic in the media, to serve as an example of this.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        > People with complicated ideas tend to get upset when you do that. Presumably because they don't actually understand their 'ideas' themselves and not so much because they are complicated (I don't agree that most complicated ideas are nonsense it's just that it's rarely possible to discuss them without splitting them up/narrowing down to specific aspects. So chances are that a person who proposes one is incapable of doing either of those things so we end up with nonsense). But yeah that's a definitely a good approach
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Do you have a simple explanation for the difference between complex and complicated?
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      String theory is complex. Any argument about US constitution that isn't just a literal reading of the text is complicated. Ask Hawking about string theory and he can answer your question. Ask a judge why civil asset forfeiture is constitutional and after a while he will refuse to talk to you anymore and insist that your uneducated mind can not possibly comprehend this complexity that he is unable to articulate or defend.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago

Widely-known concepts are like black holes; they swallow anything that dares come near. A nuanced idea doesn't have to be a complicated one, in absolute terms; it is just one that happens to have enough surface-level similarities to locate it close to a different, but much more widely-publicized idea, such that it's necessary to explain the differences carefully or else the listener's mind will leap to treating them as identical. This takes even more careful and time-consuming explanation if there is a debate partner who deliberately attempts to conflate such ideas.