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>For me, the word means that I can trade what I own to other people who want it and are offering me something I want in return. It means that, if I scrape and s

>For me, the word means that I can trade what I own to other people who want it and are offering me something I want in return. It means that, if I scrape and save, I'm allowed to turn around and invest those savings in another endeavor of my own and that whatever profits I make from it are mine to keep. No offense, but your definition (as distinguishing capitalism from socialism) isn't very good either. Your first sentence is merely the definition of a market, which can still exist just fine under socialism (even the authoritarian varieties extant today feature markets). As for the second part, that's the exact thing that proponents of socialism assert you are not free to do under capitalism. Your average worker has no hope of saving up to be able to "start an endeavor", and even well-off ones often are beholden to investors, which forces you to part with a substantial part of your profits you made to people who contributed no work to your endeavor. Likewise, if your business does become profitable, it is usually going to be as a result of work others did, not profits "you" made. The key part of capitalism is that any profits in excess of the bare minimum go to the owners of capital, not the workers. Unless you have capital yourself, you either have no access to the means of production, or are forced to give up a substantial part of the value you produce.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> which can still exist just fine under socialism Theoretically, it's claimed. Where are the markets in Venezuela? Which bakery could you go to in the Soviet Union when the bread line was long and the shelves empty at the state store? Why is it that such places always end up using some sort of ration ticket instead of real currency? > As for the second part, that's the exact thing that proponents of socialism assert you are not free to do under capitalism. Your average worker has no hope of saving up to be able to "start an endeavor", No, they're just lazy losers. I read somewhere once that you can buy the hotdog cart at Costco for $400 or $450 like that. But I suppose the ones that whine that they can't start an endeavor want to skip to the end of the game, where they own $500 million in McDonald's stock and a few dozen franchise stores... so my example doesn't count. There exist opportunities for people at all levels of capital. I'm not an entrepreneur myself, don't have any knack for it. But it's nice to know that the commies are always there, hiding in the shadows ready to swoop in and confiscate, if say, I did buy a food truck and put my brother-in-law to work running it. > The key part of capitalism is that any profits in excess of the bare minimum go to the owners of capital, You mean, the owners of the business. Sure. Why should it be otherwise. No one with capital would trust the sorts of people who do minimum wage scutwork to be the sorts of partners who should be cut in on the profit. Go read r/antiwork and tell me those are the people who you'd trust with your life-savings. All they bring to the table is talentless meniality and a bad attitude. > you either have no access to the means of production, o What is a "means of production"? Are you lusting after some billionaire's water-powered Jacquard loom? We're on Hacker News, if I'm not mistaken. The means of production for most of us is a laptop, and internet connection, and our brains. But maybe you're right, most people don't have access to that last one.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  So go start your $450 hotdog cart and let us know how it goes instead of making unfounded assumptions and constructing strawman arguments on the internet.
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    Well, the problem is: hot dog cart might be a great business, until you account for all the government regulations, taxes, stupid sanitary requirements, etc. severely limiting your earning potential. Things like that were much easier in late 19th/early 20th century US. Capitalism is a great system, the only thing that can break it is too much government involvement.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      With you until that last line. Street vendors have been regulated as far back as Pompeii.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      Stupid sanitary requirements in food service.
    - plagiarist 3y ago
      "Stupid sanitary requirements." Incredible. Motte and bailey argument. It's weird that "sanitary regulations cut profits too much" is the safer position you are retreating to. It's funny that you're mad about taxes when every step of the hot dog cart business requires public infrastructure. Contract law, credit cards, the highways to deliver hot dog carts to Costco, the streets to take you to Costco, "stupid traffic safety laws" that mean your car doesn't explode on the way, the public areas you plan to sell hot dogs from, "stupid flammable gas safety laws" that let you cook them without exploding, "stupid food safety laws" that mean you can buy known edible hot dog materials, currency, a legal system that prevents people from taking your money after the sale. There is a lot. Or were you going to run your cart using whatever you can hunt out in an unpaved woods and cook it on gathered firewood?
- deleted 3y ago

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> which can still exist just fine under socialism Theoretically, it's claimed. Where are the markets in Venezuela? Which bakery could you go to in the Soviet Union when the bread line was long and the shelves empty at the state store? Why is it that such places always end up using some sort of ration ticket instead of real currency? > As for the second part, that's the exact thing that proponents of socialism assert you are not free to do under capitalism. Your average worker has no hope of saving up to be able to "start an endeavor", No, they're just lazy losers. I read somewhere once that you can buy the hotdog cart at Costco for $400 or $450 like that. But I suppose the ones that whine that they can't start an endeavor want to skip to the end of the game, where they own $500 million in McDonald's stock and a few dozen franchise stores... so my example doesn't count. There exist opportunities for people at all levels of capital. I'm not an entrepreneur myself, don't have any knack for it. But it's nice to know that the commies are always there, hiding in the shadows ready to swoop in and confiscate, if say, I did buy a food truck and put my brother-in-law to work running it. > The key part of capitalism is that any profits in excess of the bare minimum go to the owners of capital, You mean, the owners of the business. Sure. Why should it be otherwise. No one with capital would trust the sorts of people who do minimum wage scutwork to be the sorts of partners who should be cut in on the profit. Go read r/antiwork and tell me those are the people who you'd trust with your life-savings. All they bring to the table is talentless meniality and a bad attitude. > you either have no access to the means of production, o What is a "means of production"? Are you lusting after some billionaire's water-powered Jacquard loom? We're on Hacker News, if I'm not mistaken. The means of production for most of us is a laptop, and internet connection, and our brains. But maybe you're right, most people don't have access to that last one.

plagiarist 3y ago
So go start your $450 hotdog cart and let us know how it goes instead of making unfounded assumptions and constructing strawman arguments on the internet.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  Well, the problem is: hot dog cart might be a great business, until you account for all the government regulations, taxes, stupid sanitary requirements, etc. severely limiting your earning potential. Things like that were much easier in late 19th/early 20th century US. Capitalism is a great system, the only thing that can break it is too much government involvement.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    With you until that last line. Street vendors have been regulated as far back as Pompeii.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Stupid sanitary requirements in food service.
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    "Stupid sanitary requirements." Incredible. Motte and bailey argument. It's weird that "sanitary regulations cut profits too much" is the safer position you are retreating to. It's funny that you're mad about taxes when every step of the hot dog cart business requires public infrastructure. Contract law, credit cards, the highways to deliver hot dog carts to Costco, the streets to take you to Costco, "stupid traffic safety laws" that mean your car doesn't explode on the way, the public areas you plan to sell hot dogs from, "stupid flammable gas safety laws" that let you cook them without exploding, "stupid food safety laws" that mean you can buy known edible hot dog materials, currency, a legal system that prevents people from taking your money after the sale. There is a lot. Or were you going to run your cart using whatever you can hunt out in an unpaved woods and cook it on gathered firewood?
deleted 3y ago