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> I assume it's a cost thing. Is it though? It's not like they have to reinvent the button each time. Buttons that last a decade or three have already been de

> I assume it's a cost thing. Is it though? It's not like they have to reinvent the button each time. Buttons that last a decade or three have already been designed.

ilikehurdles 3y ago
Auto margins are ridiculously thin, and if a manufacturer can trim 17 cents off a car’s manufacturing cost by removing a button, they usually will.
- nojvek 3y ago
  You have a source for that? I wish dealership margins were that thin. Cars are much more expensive post pandemic than pre-pandemic.
  - ilikehurdles 3y ago
    https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios.php?ind=404 https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios... has some good data, as you see we’re talking mid to low single digits net, low teens gross. To your point, this is an increase that happened during the pandemic, interestingly. Dealership margins, as I recall, are 10-20%, also not great. Mfg margins have come up during the pandemic, interestingly, but historically have been very low[1]: > While estimated aggregate industry operating profit margins are 6 to 7 percent (Exhibit 1), large variations in profitability exists across companies. For instance, some European niche, luxury companies make double-digit margins more akin to those of high-tech players, while mass-market (or value-focused) OEMs make 4 to 5 percent. [1]: https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automotive%20and%20Assembly/Our%20Insights/Down%20but%20not%20out%20How%20automakers%20can%20create%20value%20in%20an%20uncertain%20future/Down-but-not-out-how-automakers-can-create-value-VF.ashx https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automot...
- wyre 3y ago
  Your post under says margins of 6%? 17 cents over a 6% margin on a $30,000+ purchase would be like McDonalds charging for extra salt on their fries. I’d guess it’s an ease of design and manufacturing decision when you can eliminate so many buttons so easily.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > would be like McDonalds charging for extra salt on their fries. Aren't they? I had a vague impression it happened. And of course, some McDonalds' locations charge you something absurd for an extra ketchup packet.
    - ilikehurdles 3y ago
      Pretty much any McDonalds I’ve been to in Central Europe has a charge on each condiment pack.
      - OkGoDoIt 3y ago
        In my experience in the USA, most fast food restaurants in the suburbs give away sauces for free, but the ones in cities charge for everything. Seems to also be correlated with whether or not the fast food restaurant has self serve soda fountains versus soda poured behind the counter.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        In Poland I've experienced both ones that charge you per packet, and ones where asking for a packet will have the cashier grab a bunch of them without even counting, give them to you for free, and move on to handle another customer. That applies only to ketchup packs, though - they always charge for sauces. The only place I ever got sauce containers by handful for free was in a KFC in Shenzhen, China.
- AngryData 3y ago
  Their margins being thin is a matter of perspective. Most farms are running 1% profit margins on average and have massive variations in yield that auto production lacks.
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    Most farmers (who have been farming for years) are extremely land rich. Everything goes to pay for land that continues to appreciate. source: came from a farming family. All income goes back into the farm and we continually buy new circles.
globular-toast 3y ago
Definitely. That's why so many cheap electronics come with touch sensors instead of buttons these days.
masklinn 3y ago
Buttons are not just design, it’s more parts and assembly. On the high end it’s also a “less clean” look, unless you’re high enough for truly luxurious buttons and knobs’ designs and materials to be justifiable.
dghlsakjg 3y ago
Absolutely. Automotive grade controls are pretty expensive (it's not unreasonable to expect them to be operative from -40 to 140f, UV resistant, dust and vibration resistant, etc.), and as with all hardware, BOM cost is king. Even if the button can be stolen from an existing design, it still costs real money, and adds manufacturing labor costs. The button then has to be tested, and kept in stock for service purposes. What if the button has silkscreen printing on it? It might be the same hardware button for the traction control and the trunk open button, but now they are different SKUs because the label is different. So let's say I can eliminate 10 $1 buttons (that is an extraordinarily cheap button) by moving functionality to a touchscreen that is going to be in the car no matter what. I reduce the BOM cost by $10 per unit. That's a bunch of buttons that also aren't going to have warranty issues either. The wiring can all go straight to the head unit in a single bundle as well, and there are ten less connections for the assembly line to make. If I do that on a popular platform like the Corolla selling 750k units per year, I have just reduced expenses directly by 7.5 million, plus the cost of install, and simplified the supply chain.
kuboble 3y ago
I don't have the source but I read that in the process of designing a car there are different teams that design outer look, inner look, the actual functionality and at the time of designing interiors it isn't known where or how many buttons you need. By having a huge touch-screen instead of knobs there is much less need to synchronize between the teams because the inheritor design team just needs to place the screen somewhere. And it's easy to imagine that it can significantly shorten the time to delivery and the costs.

> I assume it's a cost thing. Is it though? It's not like they have to reinvent the button each time. Buttons that last a decade or three have already been designed.

ilikehurdles 3y ago

Auto margins are ridiculously thin, and if a manufacturer can trim 17 cents off a car’s manufacturing cost by removing a button, they usually will.

nojvek 3y ago
You have a source for that? I wish dealership margins were that thin. Cars are much more expensive post pandemic than pre-pandemic.
- ilikehurdles 3y ago
  https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios.php?ind=404 https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios... has some good data, as you see we’re talking mid to low single digits net, low teens gross. To your point, this is an increase that happened during the pandemic, interestingly. Dealership margins, as I recall, are 10-20%, also not great. Mfg margins have come up during the pandemic, interestingly, but historically have been very low[1]: > While estimated aggregate industry operating profit margins are 6 to 7 percent (Exhibit 1), large variations in profitability exists across companies. For instance, some European niche, luxury companies make double-digit margins more akin to those of high-tech players, while mass-market (or value-focused) OEMs make 4 to 5 percent. [1]: https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automotive%20and%20Assembly/Our%20Insights/Down%20but%20not%20out%20How%20automakers%20can%20create%20value%20in%20an%20uncertain%20future/Down-but-not-out-how-automakers-can-create-value-VF.ashx https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automot...
wyre 3y ago
Your post under says margins of 6%? 17 cents over a 6% margin on a $30,000+ purchase would be like McDonalds charging for extra salt on their fries. I’d guess it’s an ease of design and manufacturing decision when you can eliminate so many buttons so easily.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > would be like McDonalds charging for extra salt on their fries. Aren't they? I had a vague impression it happened. And of course, some McDonalds' locations charge you something absurd for an extra ketchup packet.
  - ilikehurdles 3y ago
    Pretty much any McDonalds I’ve been to in Central Europe has a charge on each condiment pack.
    - OkGoDoIt 3y ago
      In my experience in the USA, most fast food restaurants in the suburbs give away sauces for free, but the ones in cities charge for everything. Seems to also be correlated with whether or not the fast food restaurant has self serve soda fountains versus soda poured behind the counter.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      In Poland I've experienced both ones that charge you per packet, and ones where asking for a packet will have the cashier grab a bunch of them without even counting, give them to you for free, and move on to handle another customer. That applies only to ketchup packs, though - they always charge for sauces. The only place I ever got sauce containers by handful for free was in a KFC in Shenzhen, China.
AngryData 3y ago
Their margins being thin is a matter of perspective. Most farms are running 1% profit margins on average and have massive variations in yield that auto production lacks.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  Most farmers (who have been farming for years) are extremely land rich. Everything goes to pay for land that continues to appreciate. source: came from a farming family. All income goes back into the farm and we continually buy new circles.

globular-toast 3y ago

Definitely. That's why so many cheap electronics come with touch sensors instead of buttons these days.

masklinn 3y ago

Buttons are not just design, it’s more parts and assembly. On the high end it’s also a “less clean” look, unless you’re high enough for truly luxurious buttons and knobs’ designs and materials to be justifiable.

dghlsakjg 3y ago

Absolutely. Automotive grade controls are pretty expensive (it's not unreasonable to expect them to be operative from -40 to 140f, UV resistant, dust and vibration resistant, etc.), and as with all hardware, BOM cost is king. Even if the button can be stolen from an existing design, it still costs real money, and adds manufacturing labor costs. The button then has to be tested, and kept in stock for service purposes. What if the button has silkscreen printing on it? It might be the same hardware button for the traction control and the trunk open button, but now they are different SKUs because the label is different. So let's say I can eliminate 10 $1 buttons (that is an extraordinarily cheap button) by moving functionality to a touchscreen that is going to be in the car no matter what. I reduce the BOM cost by $10 per unit. That's a bunch of buttons that also aren't going to have warranty issues either. The wiring can all go straight to the head unit in a single bundle as well, and there are ten less connections for the assembly line to make. If I do that on a popular platform like the Corolla selling 750k units per year, I have just reduced expenses directly by 7.5 million, plus the cost of install, and simplified the supply chain.

kuboble 3y ago

I don't have the source but I read that in the process of designing a car there are different teams that design outer look, inner look, the actual functionality and at the time of designing interiors it isn't known where or how many buttons you need. By having a huge touch-screen instead of knobs there is much less need to synchronize between the teams because the inheritor design team just needs to place the screen somewhere. And it's easy to imagine that it can significantly shorten the time to delivery and the costs.