2 ms·

Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of

Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. This is mostly about making sure emissions testing via OBD II can’t be gamed, but it also would target modifications like “rolling coal” or turbos and superchargers that allow user controlled fuel mapping. But in the crossfire it catches completely reasonable reasons to modify your emissions system like a flex fuel upgrade, or replacing the computer of your old car with an aftermarket one because the engine immobilizer unit died and they’re paired together and OEM computers and immobilizer kits are either too expensive or not obtainable anymore. Laws against tampering with vehicle safety devices would easily have a similar effect on your built in phone home systems.

jibe 3y ago
it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest. E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tuning/inline-modules/dinantronics-x/parts/D440-0153 https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu... This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.
- 5555624 3y ago
  "It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...
  - jibe 3y ago
    EPA defines tampering here: Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068.101#p-1068.101(b)(1) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068... It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering. https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.html https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...
- tpmoney 3y ago
  The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.
  - jibe 3y ago
    The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.
    - tpmoney 3y ago
      At least as far as ECUs go, almost every after market ECU I’ve seen doesn’t control OBD II or the CEL (or does so very minimally) and is therefore immediately in violation of not conforming to the requirements to retain OEM level behavior. Fuel mapping is more grey, largely due to the ability of some OEM ECUs to be reflashed and thus retain OBD behavior.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  Title 2 of the Clean Air Act "authorizes the EPA to set standards applicable to emissions... the CAA prohibits tampering with emissions controls, as well as manufacturing, selling, and installing aftermarket devices intended to defeat those controls." They just got a $10M civil judgement against a couple "diesel tuners" here in Michigan: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-million-default-judgment-and-permanent-injunction-against-two https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-milli... https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-compliance-initiative-stopping-aftermarket-defeat-devices https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-com... but yeah, this is civil action against vendors, not anything that police will fine people for on the side of the road.

jibe 3y ago

it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest. E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tuning/inline-modules/dinantronics-x/parts/D440-0153 https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu... This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.

5555624 3y ago
"It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...
- jibe 3y ago
  EPA defines tampering here: Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068.101#p-1068.101(b)(1) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068... It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering. https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.html https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...
tpmoney 3y ago
The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.
- jibe 3y ago
  The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.
  - tpmoney 3y ago
    At least as far as ECUs go, almost every after market ECU I’ve seen doesn’t control OBD II or the CEL (or does so very minimally) and is therefore immediately in violation of not conforming to the requirements to retain OEM level behavior. Fuel mapping is more grey, largely due to the ability of some OEM ECUs to be reflashed and thus retain OBD behavior.
LeifCarrotson 3y ago
Title 2 of the Clean Air Act "authorizes the EPA to set standards applicable to emissions... the CAA prohibits tampering with emissions controls, as well as manufacturing, selling, and installing aftermarket devices intended to defeat those controls." They just got a $10M civil judgement against a couple "diesel tuners" here in Michigan: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-million-default-judgment-and-permanent-injunction-against-two https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-milli... https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-compliance-initiative-stopping-aftermarket-defeat-devices https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-com... but yeah, this is civil action against vendors, not anything that police will fine people for on the side of the road.