7 ms·

I am pretty sure that is (or soon will be) illegal in EU. Car needs to be able to call emergency, if accident is detected.

justinclift 3y ago
"Oops, how did that happen..." ;)
- throw3747874747 3y ago
  It is EURO5 or EURO6 emmision norm. It also handles firmware updates, reaction to Volkswagen cheating. Car needs to be online, check for latest firmware and all sort of nasty DRM. There is also a black box, that records position and speed. It may call emergency if it detects crash. If DRM is violated, car may refuse to start, or only drive like 50 kms. I don't have a source, but anyone should be able to find relevant articles.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    That's just creating a blackmarket for people that can crack the DRM without the car losing functionality.
loloquwowndueo 3y ago
The manufacturer may have to legally include the functionality in cars they sell but in pretty sure the owner isn’t obligated to use or keep the functionality untouched. By comparison if your seat belts are all frayed and you don’t wear them anyway that’s on you, manufacturer sold you a car with seat belts in good condition and that as far as the “compliance” requirement goes.
- tpmoney 3y ago
  Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. This is mostly about making sure emissions testing via OBD II can’t be gamed, but it also would target modifications like “rolling coal” or turbos and superchargers that allow user controlled fuel mapping. But in the crossfire it catches completely reasonable reasons to modify your emissions system like a flex fuel upgrade, or replacing the computer of your old car with an aftermarket one because the engine immobilizer unit died and they’re paired together and OEM computers and immobilizer kits are either too expensive or not obtainable anymore. Laws against tampering with vehicle safety devices would easily have a similar effect on your built in phone home systems.
  - jibe 3y ago
    it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest. E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tuning/inline-modules/dinantronics-x/parts/D440-0153 https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu... This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.
    - 5555624 3y ago
      "It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...
      - jibe 3y ago
        EPA defines tampering here: Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068.101#p-1068.101(b)(1) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068... It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering. https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.html https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...
    - tpmoney 3y ago
      The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.
- flir 3y ago
  Frayed seatbelts won't pass an MOT in the UK. (Don't know about any other country).
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    I have no required inspections here in the US... No Emissions, no Safety, no inspections at all
    - InitialLastName 3y ago
      For anyone from outside the US concerned about this: car inspection standards are state-specific. Many states have far more stringent standards.
      - glogla 3y ago
        Yup. Here's a fun hack - you can drive car in EU on US plates, due to international agreements. In that case, you don't have to follow local car inspection standards, but inspection standards of your home country. Get a plate from US state that has no inspections? You need no inspections at all!
        extraduder_ire 3y ago
        There's usually a time limit on that. Last I checked in my country it's six months before you have to register the car, get local plates, and pay VRT (vehicle registration tax) + VAT. Including the cost of VRT in the VAT calculation, resulting in double taxation. You can't put foreign plates on an irish registered car without first bringing it out of the country and registering it abroad either. I don't think there's any tax due on re-importing a car that's already been registered however. (you even get the same plate numbers since they're consistently mapped 1-to-1 VIN-to-plate forever)
        glogla 3y ago
        There is a legal limit, yes, but nobody checks it, so you can do it indefinitely. Around here, there's even a lot of people driving on fake "foreign" plates.
chongli 3y ago
Will it also be illegal to drive an old car that doesn't have this telemetry?
neurostimulant 3y ago
Wait, new cars in EU are expected to have cellular connectivity?
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  Yes and no. For eCall the modem will wakeup when crash signal is received, otherwise the chipset is disabled. For Euro7 it will be necessary by design.
lost_tourist 3y ago
Is there some EU police that go around arresting people if you clip it?
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  It wouldn't be surprising if there was. Look at how they go around enforcing people paying a tax just to be able to use televisions they legally own.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  EU "directives" require matching laws to be passed within member states, EU "regulations" apply directly to member states as written. In both cases, enforcement is up to the country you're in.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
What about the the numerous older cars that don't have that functionality?
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  Eventually, there will be no older cars left. The 'agencies' are thinking of the future, unlike the governments (ever have done, long term).

justinclift 3y ago

"Oops, how did that happen..." ;)

throw3747874747 3y ago
It is EURO5 or EURO6 emmision norm. It also handles firmware updates, reaction to Volkswagen cheating. Car needs to be online, check for latest firmware and all sort of nasty DRM. There is also a black box, that records position and speed. It may call emergency if it detects crash. If DRM is violated, car may refuse to start, or only drive like 50 kms. I don't have a source, but anyone should be able to find relevant articles.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  That's just creating a blackmarket for people that can crack the DRM without the car losing functionality.

loloquwowndueo 3y ago

The manufacturer may have to legally include the functionality in cars they sell but in pretty sure the owner isn’t obligated to use or keep the functionality untouched. By comparison if your seat belts are all frayed and you don’t wear them anyway that’s on you, manufacturer sold you a car with seat belts in good condition and that as far as the “compliance” requirement goes.

tpmoney 3y ago
Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. This is mostly about making sure emissions testing via OBD II can’t be gamed, but it also would target modifications like “rolling coal” or turbos and superchargers that allow user controlled fuel mapping. But in the crossfire it catches completely reasonable reasons to modify your emissions system like a flex fuel upgrade, or replacing the computer of your old car with an aftermarket one because the engine immobilizer unit died and they’re paired together and OEM computers and immobilizer kits are either too expensive or not obtainable anymore. Laws against tampering with vehicle safety devices would easily have a similar effect on your built in phone home systems.
- jibe 3y ago
  it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest. E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tuning/inline-modules/dinantronics-x/parts/D440-0153 https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu... This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.
  - 5555624 3y ago
    "It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...
    - jibe 3y ago
      EPA defines tampering here: Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068.101#p-1068.101(b)(1) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068... It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering. https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.html https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...
  - tpmoney 3y ago
    The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/tamperinganddefeatdevices-enfalert.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.
flir 3y ago
Frayed seatbelts won't pass an MOT in the UK. (Don't know about any other country).
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  I have no required inspections here in the US... No Emissions, no Safety, no inspections at all
  - InitialLastName 3y ago
    For anyone from outside the US concerned about this: car inspection standards are state-specific. Many states have far more stringent standards.
    - glogla 3y ago
      Yup. Here's a fun hack - you can drive car in EU on US plates, due to international agreements. In that case, you don't have to follow local car inspection standards, but inspection standards of your home country. Get a plate from US state that has no inspections? You need no inspections at all!
      - extraduder_ire 3y ago
        There's usually a time limit on that. Last I checked in my country it's six months before you have to register the car, get local plates, and pay VRT (vehicle registration tax) + VAT. Including the cost of VRT in the VAT calculation, resulting in double taxation. You can't put foreign plates on an irish registered car without first bringing it out of the country and registering it abroad either. I don't think there's any tax due on re-importing a car that's already been registered however. (you even get the same plate numbers since they're consistently mapped 1-to-1 VIN-to-plate forever)
        glogla 3y ago
        There is a legal limit, yes, but nobody checks it, so you can do it indefinitely. Around here, there's even a lot of people driving on fake "foreign" plates.

chongli 3y ago

Will it also be illegal to drive an old car that doesn't have this telemetry?

neurostimulant 3y ago

Wait, new cars in EU are expected to have cellular connectivity?

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
Yes and no. For eCall the modem will wakeup when crash signal is received, otherwise the chipset is disabled. For Euro7 it will be necessary by design.

lost_tourist 3y ago

Is there some EU police that go around arresting people if you clip it?

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
It wouldn't be surprising if there was. Look at how they go around enforcing people paying a tax just to be able to use televisions they legally own.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
EU "directives" require matching laws to be passed within member states, EU "regulations" apply directly to member states as written. In both cases, enforcement is up to the country you're in.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

What about the the numerous older cars that don't have that functionality?

Ylpertnodi 3y ago
Eventually, there will be no older cars left. The 'agencies' are thinking of the future, unlike the governments (ever have done, long term).