4 ms·

I realise it's from song lyrics so doesn't have to make sense but this instinctively scans as poor grammar to me. Shouldn't it be "she'd" past tense? Otherwis

by Lio 3y ago

I realise it's from song lyrics so doesn't have to make sense but this instinctively scans as poor grammar to me. Shouldn't it be "she'd" past tense? Otherwise it's just someone saying "goodbye too many times before" and someone who'd previously said "goodbye" more than is acceptable. ...I'm almost certainly overthinking this but I'd wager that tense error is important when translating to Latin. It's like reading XML where someone's left out a closing tag. :P

ses1984 3y ago
Doesn’t adding the ‘d change it from past tense to passive voice past tense?
- Lio 3y ago
  I honestly don't know but to me it sounds like present tense. I'd be interested to know though. It just reads as ...wrong to me. I guess it might be an English dialect thing.
  - slhck 3y ago
    I'd say: "She has said goodbye too many times before." Because it still has relevance for the present, it should be present perfect. Unless if course it's about finally quitting, then the past tense makes sense.
    - Lio 3y ago
      > "She has said goodbye too many times before." Yeah, that sounds OK. Probably better than my original suggestion. Or even the contracted "She's said goodbye too many times before".
      - jameshart 3y ago
        I always heard the lyric as ‘she’s said goodbye..’, which both scans and makes more grammatical sense. Also matches the tense of the previous line - ‘this love has taken its toll..’
- thfuran 3y ago
  No, that's past perfect but not passive. Passive voice is where the subject is not the actor. "Mistakes were made" is a classic example. Mistakes are the subject but did not do the verb. Someone made mistakes.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Not sure, but the phrasing without 'd reads as off to me, a native english speaker.
- jraph 3y ago
  Since several people are not sure about this, I figured an easily skipped little grammar point can't hurt too much. Passive past would be something like "Goodbye had been said too many times before [by her]" In active voice, the subject does something to the object. In passive voice, the object is affected [by the subject]. (I wanted to write "is done something to" instead of "affected", but that feels ugly - the issue with affected is that it is also an adjective; I really mean the past participle here) The object becomes the subject, and vice versa. The be auxiliary needs to be present. If be is not here, it ain't passive. If be is here… be can be used in active voice so you can't know for sure, but if there's a "by ..." clause, or if adding one feels natural, that a good hint. The intent of the passive voice is usually to focus on the object or the action, of de-emphasis the subject, of even to drop it because it's not important, it's redundant or even to create some suspense regarding who performed the action. (English is a second language to me, though what I wrote completely applies to my first language too)
prosody 3y ago
The answerer does say that either the perfect past (Latin’s closest to -ed) or the pluperfect past (Latin’s closest to had -ed) would work, they just chose perfect past. Maybe that choice was because the perfect past has a sense of finality that English’s simple past doesn’t, so it isn’t necessary to reach deeper into the sequence of tenses as it is in English.
benrutter 3y ago
If you're interested in the grammar, I think the distinction you're getting at is pluperfect (plan action that was completed-in-the-past-in-the-past) and perfect (an action that was completed-in-the-past). "She had said goodbye too many times before" means, at some point in the past, it was the case that she had previously said goodbye too many times. I think this is the intended meaning. "She said goodbye too many times before" I don't think makes sense if you're extremely literal about it, since I can't see what "before" would track to without the embedded past. The grammatically correct versions I can come up with are: - She had (or she'd) said goodbye too many times before. - She said goodbye too many times. - She said, "Goodbye too many times before". Disclaimer: I do get that these are all worse song lyrics and that nobody had any problem understanding the intended meaning of the example sentence, which is sort of the goal of grammar.
- Majromax 3y ago
  > "She said goodbye too many times before" I don't think makes sense if you're extremely literal about it, since I can't see what "before" would track to without the embedded past. It would grammatically work if you interpreted 'said' as a habitual action. "Before [the etiquette training], she said 'goodbye' too many times. [Now, she says it just once.]" In the context of the song, I think the habitual interpretation makes sense; the lyrics speak of trying to break the pattern of a dysfunctional relationship. This also works in that "said goodbye" has figurative intent (meaning 'left the relationship') over its literal meaning of verbally expressing one's departure.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    I don't think that matches. In your version, "before" implies that something happened that affected the goodbye-saying. In the song, "before" is an adverb referring to the current time in the story, which does not impact the goodbye-saying. I can only make yours scan if I interpret it as "She said goodbye too many times before... I stopped taking her back.
- jakear 3y ago
  Somehow the context of the song hasn't been shared on the thread yet: Whispered goodbye as she got on a plane Never to return again ... This love has taken its toll on me She said goodbye too many times before And her heart is breaking in front of me And I have no choice 'cause I won't say goodbye anymore Clearly "before" is needed to rhyme with "anymore". Also it is referencing the times she said "goodbye" before she said it this last time when she got on the plane.
bloak 3y ago
> Shouldn't it be "she'd" past tense? Yes, probably (I don't know the context), but it seems to me that in colloquial US English the traditional complex tense system has been somewhat simplified: perhaps another example of the historical influence of Germans and other non-native speakers in the US. I'm British, of course, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here but I think I've heard native speakers of US English say things that are just wrong, because of the choice of verb tense, in any form of British English that I am familiar with: things like "Did you already do it?", though I can't guarantee that's a good example. Of course it could be that the verb system of colloquial US English is just as complex as the verb system of British English but the subtleties pass me by: I just notice the things that to me seem wrong, like failing to distinguish between "Did you do" and "Have you done".
- da39a3ee 3y ago
  Yep, for example, it's standard for US speakers to say "I wish you would have done X instead" whereas Brits would say that should be "I wish you had done X instead". I believe that that construction is a past subjunctive (since it's counterfactual) and therefore that the Brits are essentially right here ("had" is a past subjunctive form but "would have" is not; it's a conditional).
  - jgwil2 3y ago
    This is not standard or correct in American English either, though interestingly, German uses the same form for both situations ("ich wünsche, du hättest es getan" vs "du hättest es getan, wenn..."), so if that construction is more common in American English it's possible that it's due in part to the influence of German speakers.
    - da39a3ee 3y ago
      That's interesting. While perhaps not "standard", I'd definitely say it is very common among educated US speakers. Not to blame Bruce Springsteen -- who for all I know might have been trying to depict via grammatical error a certain sort of person in his song -- but for me it always brings to mind the song Bobby Jean. But now I see that apparently that is "wished" not "wish" so it's extra confusing :) Me and you, we've known each other Yeah, ever since we were sixteen I wished I would have known I wished I could have called you Just to say "Goodbye, Bobby Jean"
deleted 3y ago
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by Lio 3y ago

ses1984 3y ago

Doesn’t adding the ‘d change it from past tense to passive voice past tense?

Lio 3y ago
I honestly don't know but to me it sounds like present tense. I'd be interested to know though. It just reads as ...wrong to me. I guess it might be an English dialect thing.
- slhck 3y ago
  I'd say: "She has said goodbye too many times before." Because it still has relevance for the present, it should be present perfect. Unless if course it's about finally quitting, then the past tense makes sense.
  - Lio 3y ago
    > "She has said goodbye too many times before." Yeah, that sounds OK. Probably better than my original suggestion. Or even the contracted "She's said goodbye too many times before".
    - jameshart 3y ago
      I always heard the lyric as ‘she’s said goodbye..’, which both scans and makes more grammatical sense. Also matches the tense of the previous line - ‘this love has taken its toll..’
thfuran 3y ago
No, that's past perfect but not passive. Passive voice is where the subject is not the actor. "Mistakes were made" is a classic example. Mistakes are the subject but did not do the verb. Someone made mistakes.
whimsicalism 3y ago
Not sure, but the phrasing without 'd reads as off to me, a native english speaker.
jraph 3y ago
Since several people are not sure about this, I figured an easily skipped little grammar point can't hurt too much. Passive past would be something like "Goodbye had been said too many times before [by her]" In active voice, the subject does something to the object. In passive voice, the object is affected [by the subject]. (I wanted to write "is done something to" instead of "affected", but that feels ugly - the issue with affected is that it is also an adjective; I really mean the past participle here) The object becomes the subject, and vice versa. The be auxiliary needs to be present. If be is not here, it ain't passive. If be is here… be can be used in active voice so you can't know for sure, but if there's a "by ..." clause, or if adding one feels natural, that a good hint. The intent of the passive voice is usually to focus on the object or the action, of de-emphasis the subject, of even to drop it because it's not important, it's redundant or even to create some suspense regarding who performed the action. (English is a second language to me, though what I wrote completely applies to my first language too)

prosody 3y ago

The answerer does say that either the perfect past (Latin’s closest to -ed) or the pluperfect past (Latin’s closest to had -ed) would work, they just chose perfect past. Maybe that choice was because the perfect past has a sense of finality that English’s simple past doesn’t, so it isn’t necessary to reach deeper into the sequence of tenses as it is in English.

benrutter 3y ago

If you're interested in the grammar, I think the distinction you're getting at is pluperfect (plan action that was completed-in-the-past-in-the-past) and perfect (an action that was completed-in-the-past). "She had said goodbye too many times before" means, at some point in the past, it was the case that she had previously said goodbye too many times. I think this is the intended meaning. "She said goodbye too many times before" I don't think makes sense if you're extremely literal about it, since I can't see what "before" would track to without the embedded past. The grammatically correct versions I can come up with are: - She had (or she'd) said goodbye too many times before. - She said goodbye too many times. - She said, "Goodbye too many times before". Disclaimer: I do get that these are all worse song lyrics and that nobody had any problem understanding the intended meaning of the example sentence, which is sort of the goal of grammar.

Majromax 3y ago
> "She said goodbye too many times before" I don't think makes sense if you're extremely literal about it, since I can't see what "before" would track to without the embedded past. It would grammatically work if you interpreted 'said' as a habitual action. "Before [the etiquette training], she said 'goodbye' too many times. [Now, she says it just once.]" In the context of the song, I think the habitual interpretation makes sense; the lyrics speak of trying to break the pattern of a dysfunctional relationship. This also works in that "said goodbye" has figurative intent (meaning 'left the relationship') over its literal meaning of verbally expressing one's departure.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  I don't think that matches. In your version, "before" implies that something happened that affected the goodbye-saying. In the song, "before" is an adverb referring to the current time in the story, which does not impact the goodbye-saying. I can only make yours scan if I interpret it as "She said goodbye too many times before... I stopped taking her back.
jakear 3y ago
Somehow the context of the song hasn't been shared on the thread yet: Whispered goodbye as she got on a plane Never to return again ... This love has taken its toll on me She said goodbye too many times before And her heart is breaking in front of me And I have no choice 'cause I won't say goodbye anymore Clearly "before" is needed to rhyme with "anymore". Also it is referencing the times she said "goodbye" before she said it this last time when she got on the plane.

bloak 3y ago

> Shouldn't it be "she'd" past tense? Yes, probably (I don't know the context), but it seems to me that in colloquial US English the traditional complex tense system has been somewhat simplified: perhaps another example of the historical influence of Germans and other non-native speakers in the US. I'm British, of course, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here but I think I've heard native speakers of US English say things that are just wrong, because of the choice of verb tense, in any form of British English that I am familiar with: things like "Did you already do it?", though I can't guarantee that's a good example. Of course it could be that the verb system of colloquial US English is just as complex as the verb system of British English but the subtleties pass me by: I just notice the things that to me seem wrong, like failing to distinguish between "Did you do" and "Have you done".

da39a3ee 3y ago
Yep, for example, it's standard for US speakers to say "I wish you would have done X instead" whereas Brits would say that should be "I wish you had done X instead". I believe that that construction is a past subjunctive (since it's counterfactual) and therefore that the Brits are essentially right here ("had" is a past subjunctive form but "would have" is not; it's a conditional).
- jgwil2 3y ago
  This is not standard or correct in American English either, though interestingly, German uses the same form for both situations ("ich wünsche, du hättest es getan" vs "du hättest es getan, wenn..."), so if that construction is more common in American English it's possible that it's due in part to the influence of German speakers.
  - da39a3ee 3y ago
    That's interesting. While perhaps not "standard", I'd definitely say it is very common among educated US speakers. Not to blame Bruce Springsteen -- who for all I know might have been trying to depict via grammatical error a certain sort of person in his song -- but for me it always brings to mind the song Bobby Jean. But now I see that apparently that is "wished" not "wish" so it's extra confusing :) Me and you, we've known each other Yeah, ever since we were sixteen I wished I would have known I wished I could have called you Just to say "Goodbye, Bobby Jean"

deleted 3y ago

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