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I thought iMessage would totally be designated a gatekeeper status. I guess it's still in investigation, and being fair, it's not as popular a messaging applic

I thought iMessage would totally be designated a gatekeeper status. I guess it's still in investigation, and being fair, it's not as popular a messaging application as it is in the USA where it would absolutely needs to be forced to open up. Just not as bad an issue in Europe I guess.

izacus 3y ago
Yeah, if US would care about free market, iMessage would be an issue. But in EU it doesn't really (yet) have such a big market share. Although I do hope they conclude that iMessage needs to be an interoperable service - basic human communication services shouldn't be constrainted to a single electronics device brand.
- nottorp 3y ago
  They did name FB Messenger and WhatsApp so it sounds correct for the EU.
- kmlx 3y ago
  it already is interoperable as you can receive and send plain old sms messages without an issue.
  - N19PEDL2 3y ago
    You are just saying that it's interoperable as long as you use another service where it is not supported.
    - JimDabell 3y ago
      When I open iMessage and send a message to somebody using an Android phone, they receive it. When they reply, I see it in iMessage. When I react to something, the reaction is transliterated into text and sent via SMS. When I send an image, it is sent via MMS. It’s fair to say that there’s interoperability.
      - izacus 3y ago
        Yeah, that's not interoperability. The interoperable service here is SMS. You also conveniently leave out just how much Apple degrades experience in those cases.
        JimDabell 3y ago
        It’s interoperability. I can send/receive messages to/from a completely different system. You might not like how they’ve implemented it, but it is interoperable.
        izacus 3y ago
        How about you read the definition the EC uses for interoperability and stop bsing here?
        JimDabell 3y ago
        I did. Why don’t you explain why you think what iMessage does is not sufficient according to their definition?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        kmlx 3y ago
        > How about you read the definition the EC uses for interoperability much clearer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoperability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoperability > Interoperability is a characteristic of a product or system to work with other products or systems. yeah, that's supported across the world via SMS. what exactly is the problem here?
    - kmlx 3y ago
      what other service? you go to your messaging app that comes pre-installed on your phone and you send a text message. the other person, no matter the device, will receive it. looks interoperable to me.
robertlagrant 3y ago
Why does it need to be forced to open up?
- fidotron 3y ago
  It is a Google talking point. See every time RCS is mentioned, and it even came up at I/O.
- knallfrosch 3y ago
  https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-...
- jerojero 3y ago
  Because iMessage is a big reason people do not switch from iPhone to an Android phone in the US, so if Apple gets more market share in Europe and everyone start using iMessage, it would be reasonable to think this would start affecting competition as people become "locked in" due to the messaging of one over another platform. But, like I said, it's not a big of a deal in Europe where most people use whatsapp or facebook messenger over native messaging. At least that's what Apple has claimed. Probably because iMessage is not fully functional on android and so people just can't communicate with others effectively. But in the USA, everyone has iPhones, so everyone uses iMessage. The same messaging platforms exist in the USA as in Europe; but it doesn't matter, it's all about where your friends/family are. If everyone is on iMessage then you gotta be on iMessage and if the only way of getting iMessage (effectively) is having an iPhone then you just have to have an iPhone. This is now entering personal experience territory but I know plenty of Americans who have android phones and are thinking of getting an iPhone because of iMessage, particularly now that the iPhones are going to come with usb-c (thanks, Europe). On the other hand, I know people who have iPhones and want to switch to android but are held back due to everyone they know using iMessage. I mean, it's possible to survive without it, sure. But it's a significant boulder on the road of migration. So that's why I think it should be open up.
  - 3y ago
pta2002 3y ago
I'd guess that if iMessage had a market share even remotely close to that of the US, it'd be a much bigger issue and would definitely qualify. Still, here it really isn't, no one actively uses it (if they do, it's probably because what they really wanted to do was send an SMS because they were unsure if the person had WhatsApp or something, and iMessage converted it)
rsynnott 3y ago
May not have met the number of users requirement. I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t 45 million _active_ users in the EU; I’m pretty deep into the Apple ecosystem, but virtually never use it. WhatsApp, and to some extent Telegram, have largely won that race in Europe.
mrtksn 3y ago
> Just not as bad an issue in Europe I guess. The iMessage dominance is a uniquely American issue. In the most of the world people don't use it. Instead, multiplatform apps are the norm. It's not realistic to expect that most of the people around you will have an iPhone to use iMessage because iPhones are just too expensive to justify the purchase when you can get away with a much cheaper android device. However, FaceTime is often used when possible.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Also, ?reverse? network effect. Even if i message someone whom I know they have an iPhone I'll use WhatsApp because I want to have all my conversations in the same place. The only time i explicitly use iMessage is when I want to send a photo as unaltered as possible - wapp recompresses them for size.
  - JD557 3y ago
    > The only time i explicitly use iMessage is when I want to send a photo as unaltered as possible - wapp recompresses them for size. Are you sure about this? I usually send images/videos via WhatsApp because, AFAICT, they are sent unchanged (unlike Facebook messenger, for example), and know multiple people who do the same thing. I never checked the file hashes, though.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      Afaik there's a mysterious 'send as file' in WhatsApp that I haven't mastered that will indeed send the files unmodified, but if you just send from your gallery they will recompress. I generally don't care about my photos THAT much to figure out how to send them completely unmodified.
noirscape 3y ago
Yeah, iMessage just... didn't really take off here. In Europe, WhatsApp holds a much greater market share in the West, while the further east you go, Telegram becomes the more dominant means of communication. It's probably in part because of the fact that iOS isn't as big in Europe; outside of the Netherlands (where iOS controls about 70% of the smartphone market) it tends to be pretty equal in market share with Android and there's of course no iMessage on Android. People want to talk to each other, share photos and WhatsApp was cross-platform with Android basically from the start. Telegram is a bit of a late arrival comparatively, and I couldn't tell you why it's big in East Europe, it just... is. Probably something to do with the remaining Russian influence in those countries? It makes total sense why WhatsApp is designated a gatekeeper but iMessage isn't.
- miohtama 3y ago
  It’s because iMessage is Apple only. Europe is 90% Android while the US is 50/50.
  - N19PEDL2 3y ago
    It's still not clear why an app that can be used by at most 50% of people is dominant.
    - enragedcacti 3y ago
      IANAL and this isn't an argument of whats legally a monopoly in the US, but I think "dominant" or "not dominant" across the entire population is an insufficient way to look at market power when network effects are involved. As an example, in the US its about 50/50 but Gen Z is 87/13 towards iPhone and there switching to Android presents a much much higher cost than a 50/50 or less scenario. Apple has considerable market power over a large slice of the population that network tightly together. You also see incidental enforcement of social stratification where wealthier users are more likely to use iPhone. I think those are things that someone could be legitimately concerned about from a competition standpoint without considering iMessage to be dominant across the entire market.
    - 3y ago

izacus 3y ago

Yeah, if US would care about free market, iMessage would be an issue. But in EU it doesn't really (yet) have such a big market share. Although I do hope they conclude that iMessage needs to be an interoperable service - basic human communication services shouldn't be constrainted to a single electronics device brand.

nottorp 3y ago
They did name FB Messenger and WhatsApp so it sounds correct for the EU.
kmlx 3y ago
it already is interoperable as you can receive and send plain old sms messages without an issue.
- N19PEDL2 3y ago
  You are just saying that it's interoperable as long as you use another service where it is not supported.
  - JimDabell 3y ago
    When I open iMessage and send a message to somebody using an Android phone, they receive it. When they reply, I see it in iMessage. When I react to something, the reaction is transliterated into text and sent via SMS. When I send an image, it is sent via MMS. It’s fair to say that there’s interoperability.
    - izacus 3y ago
      Yeah, that's not interoperability. The interoperable service here is SMS. You also conveniently leave out just how much Apple degrades experience in those cases.
      - JimDabell 3y ago
        It’s interoperability. I can send/receive messages to/from a completely different system. You might not like how they’ve implemented it, but it is interoperable.
        izacus 3y ago
        How about you read the definition the EC uses for interoperability and stop bsing here?
        JimDabell 3y ago
        I did. Why don’t you explain why you think what iMessage does is not sufficient according to their definition?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        kmlx 3y ago
        > How about you read the definition the EC uses for interoperability much clearer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoperability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoperability > Interoperability is a characteristic of a product or system to work with other products or systems. yeah, that's supported across the world via SMS. what exactly is the problem here?
  - kmlx 3y ago
    what other service? you go to your messaging app that comes pre-installed on your phone and you send a text message. the other person, no matter the device, will receive it. looks interoperable to me.

robertlagrant 3y ago

Why does it need to be forced to open up?

fidotron 3y ago
It is a Google talking point. See every time RCS is mentioned, and it even came up at I/O.
knallfrosch 3y ago
https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-...
jerojero 3y ago
Because iMessage is a big reason people do not switch from iPhone to an Android phone in the US, so if Apple gets more market share in Europe and everyone start using iMessage, it would be reasonable to think this would start affecting competition as people become "locked in" due to the messaging of one over another platform. But, like I said, it's not a big of a deal in Europe where most people use whatsapp or facebook messenger over native messaging. At least that's what Apple has claimed. Probably because iMessage is not fully functional on android and so people just can't communicate with others effectively. But in the USA, everyone has iPhones, so everyone uses iMessage. The same messaging platforms exist in the USA as in Europe; but it doesn't matter, it's all about where your friends/family are. If everyone is on iMessage then you gotta be on iMessage and if the only way of getting iMessage (effectively) is having an iPhone then you just have to have an iPhone. This is now entering personal experience territory but I know plenty of Americans who have android phones and are thinking of getting an iPhone because of iMessage, particularly now that the iPhones are going to come with usb-c (thanks, Europe). On the other hand, I know people who have iPhones and want to switch to android but are held back due to everyone they know using iMessage. I mean, it's possible to survive without it, sure. But it's a significant boulder on the road of migration. So that's why I think it should be open up.
- 3y ago

pta2002 3y ago

I'd guess that if iMessage had a market share even remotely close to that of the US, it'd be a much bigger issue and would definitely qualify. Still, here it really isn't, no one actively uses it (if they do, it's probably because what they really wanted to do was send an SMS because they were unsure if the person had WhatsApp or something, and iMessage converted it)

rsynnott 3y ago

May not have met the number of users requirement. I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t 45 million _active_ users in the EU; I’m pretty deep into the Apple ecosystem, but virtually never use it. WhatsApp, and to some extent Telegram, have largely won that race in Europe.

mrtksn 3y ago

> Just not as bad an issue in Europe I guess. The iMessage dominance is a uniquely American issue. In the most of the world people don't use it. Instead, multiplatform apps are the norm. It's not realistic to expect that most of the people around you will have an iPhone to use iMessage because iPhones are just too expensive to justify the purchase when you can get away with a much cheaper android device. However, FaceTime is often used when possible.

nottorp 3y ago
Also, ?reverse? network effect. Even if i message someone whom I know they have an iPhone I'll use WhatsApp because I want to have all my conversations in the same place. The only time i explicitly use iMessage is when I want to send a photo as unaltered as possible - wapp recompresses them for size.
- JD557 3y ago
  > The only time i explicitly use iMessage is when I want to send a photo as unaltered as possible - wapp recompresses them for size. Are you sure about this? I usually send images/videos via WhatsApp because, AFAICT, they are sent unchanged (unlike Facebook messenger, for example), and know multiple people who do the same thing. I never checked the file hashes, though.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Afaik there's a mysterious 'send as file' in WhatsApp that I haven't mastered that will indeed send the files unmodified, but if you just send from your gallery they will recompress. I generally don't care about my photos THAT much to figure out how to send them completely unmodified.

noirscape 3y ago

Yeah, iMessage just... didn't really take off here. In Europe, WhatsApp holds a much greater market share in the West, while the further east you go, Telegram becomes the more dominant means of communication. It's probably in part because of the fact that iOS isn't as big in Europe; outside of the Netherlands (where iOS controls about 70% of the smartphone market) it tends to be pretty equal in market share with Android and there's of course no iMessage on Android. People want to talk to each other, share photos and WhatsApp was cross-platform with Android basically from the start. Telegram is a bit of a late arrival comparatively, and I couldn't tell you why it's big in East Europe, it just... is. Probably something to do with the remaining Russian influence in those countries? It makes total sense why WhatsApp is designated a gatekeeper but iMessage isn't.

miohtama 3y ago
It’s because iMessage is Apple only. Europe is 90% Android while the US is 50/50.
- N19PEDL2 3y ago
  It's still not clear why an app that can be used by at most 50% of people is dominant.
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    IANAL and this isn't an argument of whats legally a monopoly in the US, but I think "dominant" or "not dominant" across the entire population is an insufficient way to look at market power when network effects are involved. As an example, in the US its about 50/50 but Gen Z is 87/13 towards iPhone and there switching to Android presents a much much higher cost than a 50/50 or less scenario. Apple has considerable market power over a large slice of the population that network tightly together. You also see incidental enforcement of social stratification where wealthier users are more likely to use iPhone. I think those are things that someone could be legitimately concerned about from a competition standpoint without considering iMessage to be dominant across the entire market.
  - 3y ago