7 ms·

After ten years of reading these articles and imagining what it would be like to reach that level, I now find myself there and asking "what next?". What is the

After ten years of reading these articles and imagining what it would be like to reach that level, I now find myself there and asking "what next?". What is the path for a staff level IC maxed out on the payscale? Seeking principal is a political battle I have no interest in. And management simply isn't in my skillset. Am I stuck just slinging Javascript into retirement? Are there any other lateral moves that could provide more upside?

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Find a place where principal isn't awarded for winning a political battle. They exist. You sound like you might be happier there.
mcquintrix 3y ago
What are you looking for in context of "Next" ? Better management position? Better technical challenges ? Better health ? better pay? All four ?
tilne 3y ago
Just curious: what are you looking for? I tend to assume that staff-level ICs have a pretty good setup as far as established expertise and freedom to choose what they work on (though that varies a lot). What tangible benefits other than higher pay are you looking for with that next step? Not saying the financial benefits aren’t worth it by themselves. Asking because I always figured I’d probably top out where you’re at, and I’m wondering what the view is like there.
paulcole 3y ago
Yeah if you reject 2 options out of hand and leave yourself with the option you like least it is going to seem like your options are limited.
ohthatsnotright 3y ago
That's basically my plan, and to work on hobbies. Try not to get burned out by the next CRUD app startup I work for, learn some language that interests me, and live my life. It's nice, as a contractor, being able to take off a week randomly and not really feel hit by the lost income because I've refocused my life to downsizing expenses and upsizing enjoyment. Keep up with enough stack-mania to keep an income until I can call it quits for good.
candiddevmike 3y ago
This is where we as an industry need to embrace unions and let folks like you mentor and train younger developers.
- lolinder 3y ago
  I'm curious if you are relating these two ideas or if you're treating them as separate. Is there a connection between unions and mentorship?
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Giving folks a path into IT via apprenticeships would be a lot easier with a union to support/enforce career growth/mentorships. Unions could also help create more developer co-ops that can offer onboarding and retirement. Somewhat unrelated, I'd love to see some kind of code dividend for folks where you keep earning money from code you wrote (that hasn't been rewritten). I think the IP assignment stuff we all have to sign is ridiculous when it creates so much value. We are signing away our right to future profits.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      That's literally what we're being paid so much for, and what those stock options we're showered with are for. The idea is that developers build future value of the company, so instead of being rewarded in commission like sales people, we get stock grants.
- koreth1 3y ago
  “Let” assumes they want to do mentoring and training. Which a lot of people do, but not everyone.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  They can do that without unions, not sure why those are a necessary condition for mentorship.
- h1n99 3y ago
pcmaffey 3y ago
The answer is always some form of “share your knowledge.” But that’s the point where the well-trodden career path ends and you either hang out at the depot at the end of the road with the other lifers or you set out bushwhacking on your own to figure things out. There’s no pay-scale signposts. You become slightly unrecognizable. And everything becomes new again, which is extra challenging to your old-ass self, because you’re pretty comfortable in your ways. But, if you persist with it, I believe (I’m not there yet), there’s nothing more rewarding than seeing your knowledge sprout into a forest.
h1n99 3y ago
I’m one level ahead of you (L7) but, like, why does there need to be something “next”? I’ll make a seven-figure TC this year. That’s enough! I spent about $50k last year, and I live in New York. My manager talks about getting me to L8 all the time and it’s exhausting. I’m done! I’ve won the income game! She is very career oriented and cares about climbing the ladder, I do not. I’ve never actually cared about “career goals” or done “growth” really, I don’t think I’d actually be unhappy if I was stuck at L5 making a mere $400k forever. That’s a really high income, an integer multiple of what my parents ever made. So my “what’s next” is keep throwing it into VTI and then retire in a few years. FWIW there were very little politics involved in my L7 promotion, I just wrote a lot of good code and mentored some people to do the same.
- scsilver 3y ago
  Would you like another mentee?
  - h1n99 3y ago
    I think I’m actually a pretty bad mentor! I can’t really do the career or manager interaction stuff well because I don’t care about it personally and I don’t have any problems myself with my manager being incompetent or changing all the times. I think that’s correlated with my somewhat unintentional success, but “have a better manager” or “don’t get reorged by directors playing game of thrones” isn’t actionable advice. What I am good at is technical stuff, so if I have a person that is 1. technically competent and with the right attitude (IYKYK) and 2. good and technical manager then I and they do very well. But that’s very situational and also the technical stuff is very company specific.
    - foobarian 3y ago
      Well if not mentee how about some free money for referring a new hire :-D
    - wyclif 3y ago
      You should put your email in your profile.
SwSwinger 3y ago
You advance in either lifestyle or risk (maybe both). Managers are better equipped to optimize and climb established business structures. ICs are better equipped to create new products or at least jump into a nimble team. Maybe you should take more risk on special projects in your organization, spearhead new technology shifts, or join a startup (giving substantial due diligence to understand the feasibility of a startup business plan from a technical perspective).
giantg2 3y ago
If you're maxed out on pay, maybe retire early and do something you enjoy? I'm stuck as a mid-level making below median dev salary at a not great comapny and I will never be anything more. Eventually you come to terms with it... mostly at least
- cebert 3y ago
  Where do you think you’re getting stuck?
  - giantg2 3y ago
    The biggest factor is probably my disability. It doesn't really matter though.
    - cebert 3y ago
      I can see how that can make things more challenging.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

Find a place where principal isn't awarded for winning a political battle. They exist. You sound like you might be happier there.

mcquintrix 3y ago

What are you looking for in context of "Next" ? Better management position? Better technical challenges ? Better health ? better pay? All four ?

tilne 3y ago

Just curious: what are you looking for? I tend to assume that staff-level ICs have a pretty good setup as far as established expertise and freedom to choose what they work on (though that varies a lot). What tangible benefits other than higher pay are you looking for with that next step? Not saying the financial benefits aren’t worth it by themselves. Asking because I always figured I’d probably top out where you’re at, and I’m wondering what the view is like there.

paulcole 3y ago

Yeah if you reject 2 options out of hand and leave yourself with the option you like least it is going to seem like your options are limited.

ohthatsnotright 3y ago

That's basically my plan, and to work on hobbies. Try not to get burned out by the next CRUD app startup I work for, learn some language that interests me, and live my life. It's nice, as a contractor, being able to take off a week randomly and not really feel hit by the lost income because I've refocused my life to downsizing expenses and upsizing enjoyment. Keep up with enough stack-mania to keep an income until I can call it quits for good.

candiddevmike 3y ago

This is where we as an industry need to embrace unions and let folks like you mentor and train younger developers.

lolinder 3y ago
I'm curious if you are relating these two ideas or if you're treating them as separate. Is there a connection between unions and mentorship?
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Giving folks a path into IT via apprenticeships would be a lot easier with a union to support/enforce career growth/mentorships. Unions could also help create more developer co-ops that can offer onboarding and retirement. Somewhat unrelated, I'd love to see some kind of code dividend for folks where you keep earning money from code you wrote (that hasn't been rewritten). I think the IP assignment stuff we all have to sign is ridiculous when it creates so much value. We are signing away our right to future profits.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    That's literally what we're being paid so much for, and what those stock options we're showered with are for. The idea is that developers build future value of the company, so instead of being rewarded in commission like sales people, we get stock grants.
koreth1 3y ago
“Let” assumes they want to do mentoring and training. Which a lot of people do, but not everyone.
satvikpendem 3y ago
They can do that without unions, not sure why those are a necessary condition for mentorship.
h1n99 3y ago

pcmaffey 3y ago

The answer is always some form of “share your knowledge.” But that’s the point where the well-trodden career path ends and you either hang out at the depot at the end of the road with the other lifers or you set out bushwhacking on your own to figure things out. There’s no pay-scale signposts. You become slightly unrecognizable. And everything becomes new again, which is extra challenging to your old-ass self, because you’re pretty comfortable in your ways. But, if you persist with it, I believe (I’m not there yet), there’s nothing more rewarding than seeing your knowledge sprout into a forest.

h1n99 3y ago

I’m one level ahead of you (L7) but, like, why does there need to be something “next”? I’ll make a seven-figure TC this year. That’s enough! I spent about $50k last year, and I live in New York. My manager talks about getting me to L8 all the time and it’s exhausting. I’m done! I’ve won the income game! She is very career oriented and cares about climbing the ladder, I do not. I’ve never actually cared about “career goals” or done “growth” really, I don’t think I’d actually be unhappy if I was stuck at L5 making a mere $400k forever. That’s a really high income, an integer multiple of what my parents ever made. So my “what’s next” is keep throwing it into VTI and then retire in a few years. FWIW there were very little politics involved in my L7 promotion, I just wrote a lot of good code and mentored some people to do the same.

scsilver 3y ago
Would you like another mentee?
- h1n99 3y ago
  I think I’m actually a pretty bad mentor! I can’t really do the career or manager interaction stuff well because I don’t care about it personally and I don’t have any problems myself with my manager being incompetent or changing all the times. I think that’s correlated with my somewhat unintentional success, but “have a better manager” or “don’t get reorged by directors playing game of thrones” isn’t actionable advice. What I am good at is technical stuff, so if I have a person that is 1. technically competent and with the right attitude (IYKYK) and 2. good and technical manager then I and they do very well. But that’s very situational and also the technical stuff is very company specific.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    Well if not mentee how about some free money for referring a new hire :-D
  - wyclif 3y ago
    You should put your email in your profile.

SwSwinger 3y ago

You advance in either lifestyle or risk (maybe both). Managers are better equipped to optimize and climb established business structures. ICs are better equipped to create new products or at least jump into a nimble team. Maybe you should take more risk on special projects in your organization, spearhead new technology shifts, or join a startup (giving substantial due diligence to understand the feasibility of a startup business plan from a technical perspective).

giantg2 3y ago

If you're maxed out on pay, maybe retire early and do something you enjoy? I'm stuck as a mid-level making below median dev salary at a not great comapny and I will never be anything more. Eventually you come to terms with it... mostly at least

cebert 3y ago
Where do you think you’re getting stuck?
- giantg2 3y ago
  The biggest factor is probably my disability. It doesn't really matter though.
  - cebert 3y ago
    I can see how that can make things more challenging.