5 ms·

When you say companies don't want to pay more, are you talking about the trucking company or the company that needs goods moved? I'd imagine that a trucking co

When you say companies don't want to pay more, are you talking about the trucking company or the company that needs goods moved? I'd imagine that a trucking company will pay almost as much as possible to a driver, because as long as there is a profit in the shipment, it makes sense to pay the driver to move it. If you book a piece of freight for $1000, would you not pay a driver $990 worse case, just to move it, because that's better in the long run than losing business? It seems more likely that the people that need things moved think it's too high and decide to not move the items at all.

alphazard 3y ago
I was talking about the trucking companies, since they are the direct participants in the demand side of the trucking labor market. I agree with your analysis though. They should be willing to pay truckers whatever wage allows them to profit. They would rather have more of that surplus to themselves though. The price that the clients are willing to pay to have their goods moved ultimately dictates how much of that surplus there is for the truckers and the company to split.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  > They should be willing to pay truckers whatever wage allows them to profit. That's pretty superficial. The critical question is "how much profit?" There is a world of difference between coming out $0.01 ahead of costs and coming out $10M ahead of costs.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    But IT people should 'charge by value'. Why shouldn't truckers be able to do the same?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that "willing to pay whatever allows them to profit" is missing any consideration of the desired magnitude of the profit, and although this is elastic, it's not infinitely elastic.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Trucking is so under competitive pressure that it is essentially a race to the bottom. You only get into trucking when you don't have a whole lot of options left. The hours suck, you make peanuts and your body goes to shit. It should cost a lot more than it does.
        talldatethrow 3y ago
        I know truckers making $150k a year, living on 5 acres of land with a decent house and a 3k sqft metal shop for all their toys. Let's not go crazy making superficial judgements just to feel better about programming as a career.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Exceptions, rules and all that and I wasn't making any superficial judgements: trucking is a harsh life, besides the fact that it is downright dangerous, iirc the most dangerous job short of the fishery industry (on ocean going vessels).
        PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Forbes says it's #6 on a list, behind loggers, roofers, fishing and more https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dangerous-jobs-america/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dange...
        jacquesm 3y ago
        So, read 'one of the most dangerous'. I've also seen articles that list it as the most dangerous, I don't have access to raw statistics nor do I care to argue the finer points of this for the sake of fake internet points, the fact is: trucking is super dangerous, far more dangerous than IT jobs ever will be and is on average comparably badly compensated. If you disagree with that in principle feel free to state why.
fragmede 3y ago
If you pay $990 on a $1,000 job, you'll lose your own business soon enough, that it won't matter if you lose any business!
radicalbyte 3y ago
From my experience in trucking the industry is full of webs of middlemen all looking to take their slice. The result is that everyone is trying to screw everyone else. Drivers have the least leverage. Software contracting is similar.
jjk166 3y ago
There's a lot of overhead to running a business, some of which is captured on a balance sheet and some not. There's risk, there's stress, there's wear and tear on both man and machine, and there is opportunity cost. Just because you expect to make a profit on paper doesn't mean that it's worth the effort.

alphazard 3y ago

I was talking about the trucking companies, since they are the direct participants in the demand side of the trucking labor market. I agree with your analysis though. They should be willing to pay truckers whatever wage allows them to profit. They would rather have more of that surplus to themselves though. The price that the clients are willing to pay to have their goods moved ultimately dictates how much of that surplus there is for the truckers and the company to split.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
> They should be willing to pay truckers whatever wage allows them to profit. That's pretty superficial. The critical question is "how much profit?" There is a world of difference between coming out $0.01 ahead of costs and coming out $10M ahead of costs.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  But IT people should 'charge by value'. Why shouldn't truckers be able to do the same?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that "willing to pay whatever allows them to profit" is missing any consideration of the desired magnitude of the profit, and although this is elastic, it's not infinitely elastic.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Trucking is so under competitive pressure that it is essentially a race to the bottom. You only get into trucking when you don't have a whole lot of options left. The hours suck, you make peanuts and your body goes to shit. It should cost a lot more than it does.
      - talldatethrow 3y ago
        I know truckers making $150k a year, living on 5 acres of land with a decent house and a 3k sqft metal shop for all their toys. Let's not go crazy making superficial judgements just to feel better about programming as a career.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        Exceptions, rules and all that and I wasn't making any superficial judgements: trucking is a harsh life, besides the fact that it is downright dangerous, iirc the most dangerous job short of the fishery industry (on ocean going vessels).
        PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Forbes says it's #6 on a list, behind loggers, roofers, fishing and more https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dangerous-jobs-america/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/workers-comp/most-dange...
        jacquesm 3y ago
        So, read 'one of the most dangerous'. I've also seen articles that list it as the most dangerous, I don't have access to raw statistics nor do I care to argue the finer points of this for the sake of fake internet points, the fact is: trucking is super dangerous, far more dangerous than IT jobs ever will be and is on average comparably badly compensated. If you disagree with that in principle feel free to state why.

fragmede 3y ago

If you pay $990 on a $1,000 job, you'll lose your own business soon enough, that it won't matter if you lose any business!

radicalbyte 3y ago

From my experience in trucking the industry is full of webs of middlemen all looking to take their slice. The result is that everyone is trying to screw everyone else. Drivers have the least leverage. Software contracting is similar.

jjk166 3y ago

There's a lot of overhead to running a business, some of which is captured on a balance sheet and some not. There's risk, there's stress, there's wear and tear on both man and machine, and there is opportunity cost. Just because you expect to make a profit on paper doesn't mean that it's worth the effort.