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Worker shortages always come down to the same old boring thing “Nobody wants to work…” “for what I want to pay + under the conditions I want to offer.” This is

Worker shortages always come down to the same old boring thing “Nobody wants to work…” “for what I want to pay + under the conditions I want to offer.” This is the free market working as intended. It is the way in which workers improve their conditions. A “worker shortage” is just workers voting with their feet and going someplace better.

diogenes4 3y ago
I wish people would use terms like "liquid market" rather than the extremely disingenuous "free market" terminology. Free markets are a marketing term that doesn't apply to reality.
- mym1990 3y ago
  Because liquidity is a term for assets such as stocks, and related to how quickly one can liquidate something. It has nothing to do with labor. What you may be thinking of is a “fluid market”, which corresponds to how loose or tight a labor market is. Either way, there is no problem with saying that the free market is working as it should here…free markets are a concept and of course 2 words will never summarize the extremely complex world of supply and demand, and all the exceptions to the rules(neither will whatever 2 words you come up with).
  - fragmede 3y ago
    If it's not a free market, because of restrictions/regulations on that market, then we should object to calling it a free market! Look, I know it's a handy phrase that we've all grown accustomed to, but when it doesn't fit, we shouldn't try and force it to fit, just because it's comfortable.
    - mym1990 3y ago
      Then we basically have to throw the definition of any abstract idea out the window, or put an asterisk next to it with every possible caveat. Of course the implementation of a free market is not the same as the perfect concept of it because we live in a complex world. But I guess this is your hill to die on, not mine.
  - diogenes4 3y ago
    Well, anyone who claims to know what a "free market" is supposed to do is straight conning you. As i said, it's a disingenuous marketing term with no application to reality. If someone intended to say "supply and demand" surely they would use "supply and demand".
    - mym1990 3y ago
      Supply and demand is a part of the free market philosophy, and it also exists in non-capitalist ideologies. What a free market is supposed to do is well understood and studied...what it actually does with the addition of caveats such as political motives, human nature, competition, etc... is very different. Sounds like you're the one that got conned.
- adasdasdas 3y ago
  Unless you expand on why, it just sounds like a definitional game
- ahoka 3y ago
  Free market means free from economic rent. Which roughly means that no one makes extra money just because they are in a position that allows it.
Spooky23 3y ago
Sometimes. Occasionally specific skills just aren’t available. For example, there are many available construction laborers, but very few skilled carpenters. My friend and his brother are electricians… they quote $600/hr for new customers and the response is “when can you start”. Often the timeframe isn’t acceptable, and they don’t overbook. With trucking, it’s specific types of runs that you cannot fill. Nobody wants to take LTL loads to NYC at any price.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Nobody wants to take LTL loads to NYC at any price that people will pay. I'd go get a CDL and take LTL loads to NYC for $1M/pallet if enough people would pay that.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    We don’t live in an Economics 101 world. Unless you’re talking military airlift or similar. What does happen is that companies with local agent networks or partners will engage that local partner. NYC is large enough that all sorts of unusual capability exists. If you need to get a bunch of farm animals in midtown, there are in-region companies who can do that. Companies that don’t have appropriate supply chain ops just aren’t going to effectively do business. If in-region to you means a DC in North Carolina, for example, you’re probably going to get eaten alive by the competition.
    - somewhat_drunk 3y ago
      >We don’t live in an Economics 101 world. We do, in fact, live in an Economics 101 world. Sure, you also need Economics 102-499 to fully explain how it all works, but applying Economics 101 to any economic situation will yield a correct understanding 90% of the time. That said, the poster you're referring to is 100% correct: every service has a price at which people will perform it.
- ndiddy 3y ago
  Sure, but you have to look into why the skills aren't available. With trades, it's typically because nobody is willing to train people from scratch, so it's not surprising that they can't find anyone willing to spend several years getting paid minimum wage to do manual labor while simultaneously paying for trade school. A lot of the older guys working in trades learned their skills in the military, but with declining enlistment and the military increasingly farming out that work to contractors, that doesn't happen as much anymore. Tradesmen definitely do make good money eventually, but by then they're in their 30s with debt and a sore back.
RHSeeger 3y ago
Sometimes it's "for what I am able to pay", because the business doesn't support higher wages (or it won't make a profit). It is unfortunate, but it sometimes mean that the business just isn't viable. Or that "another" of that business isn't viable (if there are enough people willing to accept that wage, but only for the the other instances).
happytiger 3y ago
Yes, and it’s it interesting that the free press is so impossibly bought that the real story — that of workers saying no thanks — isn’t covered much? I own companies. I’m on the wrong side. But it’s true.

diogenes4 3y ago

I wish people would use terms like "liquid market" rather than the extremely disingenuous "free market" terminology. Free markets are a marketing term that doesn't apply to reality.

mym1990 3y ago
Because liquidity is a term for assets such as stocks, and related to how quickly one can liquidate something. It has nothing to do with labor. What you may be thinking of is a “fluid market”, which corresponds to how loose or tight a labor market is. Either way, there is no problem with saying that the free market is working as it should here…free markets are a concept and of course 2 words will never summarize the extremely complex world of supply and demand, and all the exceptions to the rules(neither will whatever 2 words you come up with).
- fragmede 3y ago
  If it's not a free market, because of restrictions/regulations on that market, then we should object to calling it a free market! Look, I know it's a handy phrase that we've all grown accustomed to, but when it doesn't fit, we shouldn't try and force it to fit, just because it's comfortable.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Then we basically have to throw the definition of any abstract idea out the window, or put an asterisk next to it with every possible caveat. Of course the implementation of a free market is not the same as the perfect concept of it because we live in a complex world. But I guess this is your hill to die on, not mine.
- diogenes4 3y ago
  Well, anyone who claims to know what a "free market" is supposed to do is straight conning you. As i said, it's a disingenuous marketing term with no application to reality. If someone intended to say "supply and demand" surely they would use "supply and demand".
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Supply and demand is a part of the free market philosophy, and it also exists in non-capitalist ideologies. What a free market is supposed to do is well understood and studied...what it actually does with the addition of caveats such as political motives, human nature, competition, etc... is very different. Sounds like you're the one that got conned.
adasdasdas 3y ago
Unless you expand on why, it just sounds like a definitional game
ahoka 3y ago
Free market means free from economic rent. Which roughly means that no one makes extra money just because they are in a position that allows it.

Spooky23 3y ago

Sometimes. Occasionally specific skills just aren’t available. For example, there are many available construction laborers, but very few skilled carpenters. My friend and his brother are electricians… they quote $600/hr for new customers and the response is “when can you start”. Often the timeframe isn’t acceptable, and they don’t overbook. With trucking, it’s specific types of runs that you cannot fill. Nobody wants to take LTL loads to NYC at any price.

sokoloff 3y ago
Nobody wants to take LTL loads to NYC at any price that people will pay. I'd go get a CDL and take LTL loads to NYC for $1M/pallet if enough people would pay that.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  We don’t live in an Economics 101 world. Unless you’re talking military airlift or similar. What does happen is that companies with local agent networks or partners will engage that local partner. NYC is large enough that all sorts of unusual capability exists. If you need to get a bunch of farm animals in midtown, there are in-region companies who can do that. Companies that don’t have appropriate supply chain ops just aren’t going to effectively do business. If in-region to you means a DC in North Carolina, for example, you’re probably going to get eaten alive by the competition.
  - somewhat_drunk 3y ago
    >We don’t live in an Economics 101 world. We do, in fact, live in an Economics 101 world. Sure, you also need Economics 102-499 to fully explain how it all works, but applying Economics 101 to any economic situation will yield a correct understanding 90% of the time. That said, the poster you're referring to is 100% correct: every service has a price at which people will perform it.
ndiddy 3y ago
Sure, but you have to look into why the skills aren't available. With trades, it's typically because nobody is willing to train people from scratch, so it's not surprising that they can't find anyone willing to spend several years getting paid minimum wage to do manual labor while simultaneously paying for trade school. A lot of the older guys working in trades learned their skills in the military, but with declining enlistment and the military increasingly farming out that work to contractors, that doesn't happen as much anymore. Tradesmen definitely do make good money eventually, but by then they're in their 30s with debt and a sore back.

RHSeeger 3y ago

Sometimes it's "for what I am able to pay", because the business doesn't support higher wages (or it won't make a profit). It is unfortunate, but it sometimes mean that the business just isn't viable. Or that "another" of that business isn't viable (if there are enough people willing to accept that wage, but only for the the other instances).

happytiger 3y ago

Yes, and it’s it interesting that the free press is so impossibly bought that the real story — that of workers saying no thanks — isn’t covered much? I own companies. I’m on the wrong side. But it’s true.