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I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to m

I pitched this to my wife a few years back. She insisted she’d rather have a smaller natural diamond. It makes no sense to me. Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me. There’s no real logic in it. But given it’s a status symbol that derives its value from its rareness, I suppose it’s no different than a Luis Vutton or a Rolex. It’s not about the function, it’s about the fact that you can afford one. I hate that mentality, I refuse to buy anything like that for myself.

failuser 3y ago
The one from the lab does not have blood, sweat and tears spent on mining it. Lab workers overtime at best. Maybe if artificial diamonds are made from forsaken orphan ashes they would have a similar sentimental value.
kalupa 3y ago
guess she prefers them to be forged by blood instead of a high pressure container
scotty79 3y ago
It's all made up, through and through so it doesn't need to make any sense.
paxys 3y ago
A good Rolex at least has a thriving resale market, and can actually increase in value over time. Same for a lot of other luxury goods as well as other stores of value (like gold or Bitcoin). Diamonds on the other hand are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store. Their high prices are a product of marketing and social pressure, nothing more.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  > effectively worthless the moment they leave the store I hear this a lot... But where can I buy a massive diamond 2nd hand for a few bucks?
  - paxys 3y ago
    Look at it the other way. If you have a diamond in good condition, can you sell it anywhere for "market price" the same way you would gold or silver? No, because the rock is not rare, and there's basically no way to verify its origin outside of the store. Look up Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace in your area and you'll find plenty of cheap listings for diamond jewelry. Will you really take a chance on any of them though?
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Large, good quality diamonds are rare, smaller ones not so much (certain colors aside).
  - hammock 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid%E2%80%93ask_spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid%E2%80%93ask_spread
  - nelgaard 3y ago
    Not a few bucks, but for 10 percent of the valuation/retail price: https://www.konkurser.dk/search/?s=diamant https://www.konkurser.dk/search/?s=diamant It is in Danish, but it is bankruptcy auctions, the high price is the valuation (typically the retail price before bankruptcy), the low price is the final highest bid, all in DKK.
    - nwienert 3y ago
      These are mostly very small and not the colors you'd want, are there other places? Otherwise don't really consider this as proof you can source diamonds cheap (would love to know if so where). Edit: searched and found about 25 places, none of them have much inventory, most are lower quality (or incredibly expensive), many are in-person only with no real pictures you can see, closest I can find is https://www.catawiki.com https://www.catawiki.com but still for the type/size I've been looking for there's really only two options and both are lower grade.
- TacticalCoder 3y ago
  I agree with the rest but... > Diamonds are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store That's not the case! You can have the stone removed from the ring and, in case you don't have the original certificate, sent to a certification authority (like GIA) to have it graded. I think it also, once graded, gets automatically laser-engraved (above a certain carat) but I'm not sure about that: maybe you need to pay for the laser engraving too. And it's then got a value on the market: there's a worldwide market (or several) and every single jeweler in the world can see which stones are available at which price depending on their specs and book any stone and have it shipped in a few clicks. Source: I've got a good friend who's a jeweler and he showed that to me. Now: fancy shops (with famous names) may make fun of people by selling them stones at 3x their values or more (I don't doubt that) but you can also go to an independent jeweler and have him model/build the ring (or he'll outsource the 3D modelling) then put the stone on it and you'll pay a price much closer to actual price of the stone (the jeweler doesn't really work harder for a 0.5 carat stone vs a 2 carat one, so the bigger the stone, the less is "wasted" on the ring). Regarding the differing values: I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved so unless labs growing these diamonds are cheating, it's extremely hard to make a lab-grown one pass for a billion years old one.
  - Someone 3y ago
    > I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved https://www.gemsociety.org/article/lab-grown-diamonds-faq https://www.gemsociety.org/article/lab-grown-diamonds-faq: “Many lab-made diamonds have an inscription that identifies them as lab-made. Diamonds can also have a lab report number inscribed on the girdle” I think it’s very likely that, If that “above a certain carat” were true, that page would have mentioned it. I also cannot think of a good argument why it would be reasonable to require producers of artificial diamonds to add such markers.
    - conductr 3y ago
      Because the GEM Society is a business that wants to 1) continue grading diamonds and 2) begin cataloging lab diamonds. Both of which are revenue sources.
brianwawok 3y ago
The difference between a $200 and a $2000 bottle of wine is mostly how expensive the thing you are drinking is. Tons of industries and products work like this. Why would it surprise you that gems are any different?
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Unless I'm wrong those are considered Veblen goods. [1] [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp
  - rbranson 3y ago
    Outside of a few household-name Champagne houses, most expensive wine is expensive because it is desirable and the vineyards used to produce it are tiny. Standard economics.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  > The difference between a $200 and a $2000 bottle of wine is mostly how expensive the thing you are drinking is. Yes, but the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $200 bottle of wine is hardly any bigger than the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $2000 bottle of wine. It makes perfect sense to me why people would drink the $2000 bottle of wine. Why not? They've got the money. If you balk at a $2000 bottle of wine, you're probably not casually drinking $200 bottles of wine either - and if you are - you're in a very small percentage of people where the price difference means something. It's maybe 2% of the population. The other 97.75% isn't buying $200 bottles of wine. And the other 0.25% can buy $2000 bottles just fine.
  - dagw 3y ago
    but the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $200 bottle of wine is hardly any bigger than the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $2000 bottle of wine. I don't think this is correct. Most wine nerds/enthusiasts I know (and I include myself) would consider dropping $200 on one of their 'dream bottles' in the right circumstance, especially if splitting the cost with a couple of friends. I don't know a single person who would ever drop $2000 on a bottle of wine under any circumstance.
threadweaver34 3y ago
> derives its value from its rareness Hah! The big issue with choosing a smaller, natural stone is you can't really be sure it's actually natural. The industry has so many unethical practices I wouldn't be confident in any "certification" that comes with a stone's origin. Even lower-grade stones might just be from lab rejects, or labs intentionally growing good, but not perfect stones.
- paxys 3y ago
  As opposed to the diamond mining industry which is a paragon of ethics...
  - TheDudeMan 3y ago
    "As opposed to"? Sounds like you are agreeing that "The industry has so many unethical practices".
    - paxys 3y ago
      Mined and lab grown diamonds have entirely different suppliers, supply chains and certifications. The person I replied to has problems with the latter, which is idiotic considering the alternative is 1000x worse.
      - Clent 3y ago
        You need to re-read the person you replied to, they aren't saying what you think they are saying. Mined diamonds may actually be lab grown diamonds certified as mined. The financial incentives only goes in one direction on this one.
  - linuxftw 3y ago
    I call them 'slave stones' because the miners are often times literal slaves.
spiderxxxx 3y ago
Diamonds are not that rare. They're durable, so it's not like an old diamond is going to break or something. So, there should be plenty of diamonds for everyone who wants one. Rings made in the 1920s and up probably have some sort of diamond in it, and if you don't like the ring, keep the gem and craft a new ring around it. I prefer more rare stones, such as a padparadscha sapphire, or Alexandrite. I prefer to give my woman a gemstone as rare as she is, and as colorful as she is, not something which has virtually no color, and is definitely not rare.
- TylerE 3y ago
  They are extremely hard, which is in most respects the opposite. Doesn’t take much to shatter one into a million pieces… Try hey will also burn readily at house firm temperatures
  - bluedevil2k 3y ago
    You obviously haven’t seen the video of a diamond being hit by a hammer against a steel anvil…and it was fine, even putting a dent into the anvil. You have to cleave it in just the right spot to split it - blunt force isn’t going to do it.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      Mild steel like that in an anvil is far from the hardest material you'll encounter in daily life. If you hit a diamond between two hammers, which are made of far harder and tougher tool steel, it will easily shatter and pulverize, no finesse required. See : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EXgYA7ve8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EXgYA7ve8 for an example. The reason why on an anvil you need to orient the diamond carefully to break is just because the tip needs to be facing some kind of reasonably hard material like tool steel, if it's being driven into mild steel, that will basically just act as a pillow for the diamond and allow the flat face to align parallel to the surface of hammer, minimizing the impact.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Not common until the 30s
hutzlibu 3y ago
The difference would be, that one was made artificial in a human machine in a lab - and the other by raw natural forces in the wild. There is no practical value in jewelry anyway, it is a status symbol and the context of coming from the wild extracted under wild conditions (and maybe violently, ooh, blood diamonds, how exiting, erm shocking) has of course a higher symbolic value. So a artificial made one would be considered "fake". Romanticism is not attached to logic. But it is still a real factor in human decision making. And to be honest, if I would be into jewelry, I probably would prefer the "real" one, too. But I am rather into extreme sports and any rings or alike are just dangerous baggage there (a friend of mine allmost lost a finger, while climbing over a fence and his ring got stuck on some metal piece). But if your wife happens to be into it - applying logic here will be probably seen as a cheap way to save money.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  > artificial in a human machine in a lab - and the other by raw natural forces in the wild What do you suppose is the value that distinguishes these two processes? The story? Or is it the persistence of the naturalistic fallacy, surfacing in all sorts of places and in all kinds of minds including those one would expect are habitually vigilant against what is essentially a generalized form of superstition.
  - sethhochberg 3y ago
    “Artificial” usually isn’t a positive thing when the word comes up. We’re often told to avoid artificial sweeteners, artificially hydrogenated oils, artificially enhanced flavors, artificial dyes and colorants… and that’s just in food and beverage, and totally ignoring the luxury image of natural hardwood instead of wood veneer, natural glass/crystal instead of plastic. Diamonds are just about the only thing I can think of where artificial and natural are encouraged to be seen as equals. I’m sure some people have a naturalist/spiritual angle, but I’d bet most are simply applying the wisdom of so many other shopping areas to this one.
    - balfirevic 3y ago
paxys 3y ago
I personally find the decision to buy lab grown diamonds to be weirder, because if you are already thinking logically rather than emotionally and can resist the social pressure then why waste money on a diamond at all? There are plenty of gems or metals out there that are cheaper, prettier, more rare and hold their value better than diamonds (whether natural or lab grown).
- edge17 3y ago
  Exactly, the whole point of buying at all is to adhere to a convention or tradition.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Because lab grown diamonds are naturally grown, unless humans are supernatural.
  - scottiebarnes 3y ago
    humans are natural, therefore all human creations and processes are natural? so my plastic bottles are naturally grown?
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      Naturally made, yes. the specific process called "grown" would better apply if there was, say, a plastic bottle-fruiting plant, but whether that plant was designed by humans or simply found by them in the environment does not change whether it is natural. There is no such thing as natural versus unnatural, this dichotomy is a holdover from the time when we believed there was another plane of reality outside or distinct from the "natural" universe, which was somehow tainted by flaws unique to humans, being creatures with one foot in both realities. I realize it sounds like a technically correct Internet argument of the nitpick variety, but I think that the norm of asseting an unchallenged bias toward "natural," and against "artificial," could use a general reassessment as it is constantly exploited by people using this ultimately baseless distinction as a way to bias opinion uncritically toward one kind of behavior or another.
edge17 3y ago
With logic like that, why buy a diamond at all? Sounds like your wife gets it!
- fragmede 3y ago
  Hopefully she gets the travel vacation she actually wants instead of a ring she doesn't!
jaaron 3y ago
> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities. For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc. If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same function. Could be otherwise identical, but could also be worth very different amounts. The stories we tell is where the primary value is. In this case, your wife values the story of a natural diamond that was formed through long, natural processes and required the effort of finding, excavating, cutting and so on. Now you could disagree with that story, or you could dislike the tellers and amplifiers of that story, but the fact remains that your wife and many others value that story, making it more precious than merely "shiny carbon." This is branding and marketing 101. Humans are storytelling machines and they understand value largely via stories and relationships. Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics.
- slashdev 3y ago
  Yeah, that makes sense. It’s not about the function, that’s for sure. > Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics. I’ll add that to the list of human behavior that I don’t really understand.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    That seems supremely othering. Do you have people in your life that you value over humans you don't know? What are the people you know, over the people that you don't, other than them being a meat bag that you know stories about, vs a meat bag that you don't?
    - llsf 3y ago
      At least people can tell their story I suppose, while a diamond cannot really once mounted on a ring (I guess you can get some certificate that tells a story, but it is not something obvious when looking at the ring). Note: my engagement ring cost $12.00 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/TIGRADE-Titanium-Polished-Wedding-Comfort/dp/B01B5TLUIA https://www.amazon.com/TIGRADE-Titanium-Polished-Wedding-Com...
leechy 3y ago
The trick about gifts for most women seems to be that they are more valued the less inherent uses they have. Roses and diamonds are good gifts. A vacuum cleaner or an alarm clock: not so much.
- sagarm 3y ago
  Assuming you work 9-5 in an office, would you be happy getting a commuter pass or an alarm clock as a gift? I imagine some work-obsessed people would, but most would prefer something more personal.

failuser 3y ago

The one from the lab does not have blood, sweat and tears spent on mining it. Lab workers overtime at best. Maybe if artificial diamonds are made from forsaken orphan ashes they would have a similar sentimental value.

kalupa 3y ago

guess she prefers them to be forged by blood instead of a high pressure container

scotty79 3y ago

It's all made up, through and through so it doesn't need to make any sense.

paxys 3y ago

A good Rolex at least has a thriving resale market, and can actually increase in value over time. Same for a lot of other luxury goods as well as other stores of value (like gold or Bitcoin). Diamonds on the other hand are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store. Their high prices are a product of marketing and social pressure, nothing more.

londons_explore 3y ago
> effectively worthless the moment they leave the store I hear this a lot... But where can I buy a massive diamond 2nd hand for a few bucks?
- paxys 3y ago
  Look at it the other way. If you have a diamond in good condition, can you sell it anywhere for "market price" the same way you would gold or silver? No, because the rock is not rare, and there's basically no way to verify its origin outside of the store. Look up Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace in your area and you'll find plenty of cheap listings for diamond jewelry. Will you really take a chance on any of them though?
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Large, good quality diamonds are rare, smaller ones not so much (certain colors aside).
- hammock 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid%E2%80%93ask_spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid%E2%80%93ask_spread
- nelgaard 3y ago
  Not a few bucks, but for 10 percent of the valuation/retail price: https://www.konkurser.dk/search/?s=diamant https://www.konkurser.dk/search/?s=diamant It is in Danish, but it is bankruptcy auctions, the high price is the valuation (typically the retail price before bankruptcy), the low price is the final highest bid, all in DKK.
  - nwienert 3y ago
    These are mostly very small and not the colors you'd want, are there other places? Otherwise don't really consider this as proof you can source diamonds cheap (would love to know if so where). Edit: searched and found about 25 places, none of them have much inventory, most are lower quality (or incredibly expensive), many are in-person only with no real pictures you can see, closest I can find is https://www.catawiki.com https://www.catawiki.com but still for the type/size I've been looking for there's really only two options and both are lower grade.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
I agree with the rest but... > Diamonds are effectively worthless the moment they leave the store That's not the case! You can have the stone removed from the ring and, in case you don't have the original certificate, sent to a certification authority (like GIA) to have it graded. I think it also, once graded, gets automatically laser-engraved (above a certain carat) but I'm not sure about that: maybe you need to pay for the laser engraving too. And it's then got a value on the market: there's a worldwide market (or several) and every single jeweler in the world can see which stones are available at which price depending on their specs and book any stone and have it shipped in a few clicks. Source: I've got a good friend who's a jeweler and he showed that to me. Now: fancy shops (with famous names) may make fun of people by selling them stones at 3x their values or more (I don't doubt that) but you can also go to an independent jeweler and have him model/build the ring (or he'll outsource the 3D modelling) then put the stone on it and you'll pay a price much closer to actual price of the stone (the jeweler doesn't really work harder for a 0.5 carat stone vs a 2 carat one, so the bigger the stone, the less is "wasted" on the ring). Regarding the differing values: I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved so unless labs growing these diamonds are cheating, it's extremely hard to make a lab-grown one pass for a billion years old one.
- Someone 3y ago
  > I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved https://www.gemsociety.org/article/lab-grown-diamonds-faq https://www.gemsociety.org/article/lab-grown-diamonds-faq: “Many lab-made diamonds have an inscription that identifies them as lab-made. Diamonds can also have a lab report number inscribed on the girdle” I think it’s very likely that, If that “above a certain carat” were true, that page would have mentioned it. I also cannot think of a good argument why it would be reasonable to require producers of artificial diamonds to add such markers.
  - conductr 3y ago
    Because the GEM Society is a business that wants to 1) continue grading diamonds and 2) begin cataloging lab diamonds. Both of which are revenue sources.

brianwawok 3y ago

The difference between a $200 and a $2000 bottle of wine is mostly how expensive the thing you are drinking is. Tons of industries and products work like this. Why would it surprise you that gems are any different?

arcticbull 3y ago
Unless I'm wrong those are considered Veblen goods. [1] [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp
- rbranson 3y ago
  Outside of a few household-name Champagne houses, most expensive wine is expensive because it is desirable and the vineyards used to produce it are tiny. Standard economics.
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
> The difference between a $200 and a $2000 bottle of wine is mostly how expensive the thing you are drinking is. Yes, but the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $200 bottle of wine is hardly any bigger than the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $2000 bottle of wine. It makes perfect sense to me why people would drink the $2000 bottle of wine. Why not? They've got the money. If you balk at a $2000 bottle of wine, you're probably not casually drinking $200 bottles of wine either - and if you are - you're in a very small percentage of people where the price difference means something. It's maybe 2% of the population. The other 97.75% isn't buying $200 bottles of wine. And the other 0.25% can buy $2000 bottles just fine.
- dagw 3y ago
  but the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $200 bottle of wine is hardly any bigger than the subset of people that can afford and would drink a $2000 bottle of wine. I don't think this is correct. Most wine nerds/enthusiasts I know (and I include myself) would consider dropping $200 on one of their 'dream bottles' in the right circumstance, especially if splitting the cost with a couple of friends. I don't know a single person who would ever drop $2000 on a bottle of wine under any circumstance.

threadweaver34 3y ago

> derives its value from its rareness Hah! The big issue with choosing a smaller, natural stone is you can't really be sure it's actually natural. The industry has so many unethical practices I wouldn't be confident in any "certification" that comes with a stone's origin. Even lower-grade stones might just be from lab rejects, or labs intentionally growing good, but not perfect stones.

paxys 3y ago
As opposed to the diamond mining industry which is a paragon of ethics...
- TheDudeMan 3y ago
  "As opposed to"? Sounds like you are agreeing that "The industry has so many unethical practices".
  - paxys 3y ago
    Mined and lab grown diamonds have entirely different suppliers, supply chains and certifications. The person I replied to has problems with the latter, which is idiotic considering the alternative is 1000x worse.
    - Clent 3y ago
      You need to re-read the person you replied to, they aren't saying what you think they are saying. Mined diamonds may actually be lab grown diamonds certified as mined. The financial incentives only goes in one direction on this one.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  I call them 'slave stones' because the miners are often times literal slaves.

spiderxxxx 3y ago

Diamonds are not that rare. They're durable, so it's not like an old diamond is going to break or something. So, there should be plenty of diamonds for everyone who wants one. Rings made in the 1920s and up probably have some sort of diamond in it, and if you don't like the ring, keep the gem and craft a new ring around it. I prefer more rare stones, such as a padparadscha sapphire, or Alexandrite. I prefer to give my woman a gemstone as rare as she is, and as colorful as she is, not something which has virtually no color, and is definitely not rare.

TylerE 3y ago
They are extremely hard, which is in most respects the opposite. Doesn’t take much to shatter one into a million pieces… Try hey will also burn readily at house firm temperatures
- bluedevil2k 3y ago
  You obviously haven’t seen the video of a diamond being hit by a hammer against a steel anvil…and it was fine, even putting a dent into the anvil. You have to cleave it in just the right spot to split it - blunt force isn’t going to do it.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Mild steel like that in an anvil is far from the hardest material you'll encounter in daily life. If you hit a diamond between two hammers, which are made of far harder and tougher tool steel, it will easily shatter and pulverize, no finesse required. See : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EXgYA7ve8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EXgYA7ve8 for an example. The reason why on an anvil you need to orient the diamond carefully to break is just because the tip needs to be facing some kind of reasonably hard material like tool steel, if it's being driven into mild steel, that will basically just act as a pillow for the diamond and allow the flat face to align parallel to the surface of hammer, minimizing the impact.
jncfhnb 3y ago
Not common until the 30s

hutzlibu 3y ago

The difference would be, that one was made artificial in a human machine in a lab - and the other by raw natural forces in the wild. There is no practical value in jewelry anyway, it is a status symbol and the context of coming from the wild extracted under wild conditions (and maybe violently, ooh, blood diamonds, how exiting, erm shocking) has of course a higher symbolic value. So a artificial made one would be considered "fake". Romanticism is not attached to logic. But it is still a real factor in human decision making. And to be honest, if I would be into jewelry, I probably would prefer the "real" one, too. But I am rather into extreme sports and any rings or alike are just dangerous baggage there (a friend of mine allmost lost a finger, while climbing over a fence and his ring got stuck on some metal piece). But if your wife happens to be into it - applying logic here will be probably seen as a cheap way to save money.

ChainOfFools 3y ago
> artificial in a human machine in a lab - and the other by raw natural forces in the wild What do you suppose is the value that distinguishes these two processes? The story? Or is it the persistence of the naturalistic fallacy, surfacing in all sorts of places and in all kinds of minds including those one would expect are habitually vigilant against what is essentially a generalized form of superstition.
- sethhochberg 3y ago
  “Artificial” usually isn’t a positive thing when the word comes up. We’re often told to avoid artificial sweeteners, artificially hydrogenated oils, artificially enhanced flavors, artificial dyes and colorants… and that’s just in food and beverage, and totally ignoring the luxury image of natural hardwood instead of wood veneer, natural glass/crystal instead of plastic. Diamonds are just about the only thing I can think of where artificial and natural are encouraged to be seen as equals. I’m sure some people have a naturalist/spiritual angle, but I’d bet most are simply applying the wisdom of so many other shopping areas to this one.
  - balfirevic 3y ago

paxys 3y ago

I personally find the decision to buy lab grown diamonds to be weirder, because if you are already thinking logically rather than emotionally and can resist the social pressure then why waste money on a diamond at all? There are plenty of gems or metals out there that are cheaper, prettier, more rare and hold their value better than diamonds (whether natural or lab grown).

edge17 3y ago
Exactly, the whole point of buying at all is to adhere to a convention or tradition.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ChainOfFools 3y ago
Because lab grown diamonds are naturally grown, unless humans are supernatural.
- scottiebarnes 3y ago
  humans are natural, therefore all human creations and processes are natural? so my plastic bottles are naturally grown?
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    Naturally made, yes. the specific process called "grown" would better apply if there was, say, a plastic bottle-fruiting plant, but whether that plant was designed by humans or simply found by them in the environment does not change whether it is natural. There is no such thing as natural versus unnatural, this dichotomy is a holdover from the time when we believed there was another plane of reality outside or distinct from the "natural" universe, which was somehow tainted by flaws unique to humans, being creatures with one foot in both realities. I realize it sounds like a technically correct Internet argument of the nitpick variety, but I think that the norm of asseting an unchallenged bias toward "natural," and against "artificial," could use a general reassessment as it is constantly exploited by people using this ultimately baseless distinction as a way to bias opinion uncritically toward one kind of behavior or another.

edge17 3y ago

With logic like that, why buy a diamond at all? Sounds like your wife gets it!

fragmede 3y ago
Hopefully she gets the travel vacation she actually wants instead of a ring she doesn't!

jaaron 3y ago

> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities. For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc. If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same function. Could be otherwise identical, but could also be worth very different amounts. The stories we tell is where the primary value is. In this case, your wife values the story of a natural diamond that was formed through long, natural processes and required the effort of finding, excavating, cutting and so on. Now you could disagree with that story, or you could dislike the tellers and amplifiers of that story, but the fact remains that your wife and many others value that story, making it more precious than merely "shiny carbon." This is branding and marketing 101. Humans are storytelling machines and they understand value largely via stories and relationships. Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics.

slashdev 3y ago
Yeah, that makes sense. It’s not about the function, that’s for sure. > Misunderstanding that is a failure to understand essential human characteristics. I’ll add that to the list of human behavior that I don’t really understand.
- fragmede 3y ago
  That seems supremely othering. Do you have people in your life that you value over humans you don't know? What are the people you know, over the people that you don't, other than them being a meat bag that you know stories about, vs a meat bag that you don't?
  - llsf 3y ago
    At least people can tell their story I suppose, while a diamond cannot really once mounted on a ring (I guess you can get some certificate that tells a story, but it is not something obvious when looking at the ring). Note: my engagement ring cost $12.00 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/TIGRADE-Titanium-Polished-Wedding-Comfort/dp/B01B5TLUIA https://www.amazon.com/TIGRADE-Titanium-Polished-Wedding-Com...

leechy 3y ago

The trick about gifts for most women seems to be that they are more valued the less inherent uses they have. Roses and diamonds are good gifts. A vacuum cleaner or an alarm clock: not so much.

sagarm 3y ago
Assuming you work 9-5 in an office, would you be happy getting a commuter pass or an alarm clock as a gift? I imagine some work-obsessed people would, but most would prefer something more personal.