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BMW: Gasoline Car Ban Poses “Imminent Risk” to European Automakers
- tpmx 3y ago*German automakers Somehow non-German European car makers like Volvo have made great progress on their roadmaps to 100% electric by 2035. Their most popular models are now no longer sold with 100% ICE, as an example.
- slaw 3y agoVolvo is Chinese.
- tpmx 3y agoAnd their management team, engineering team and values are all verly clearly Swedish. And way ahead of the curve compared to their German competitors, it seems. And no, EV engineering being located in China is not what I'm hearing.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>German automakers* German automakers bet the farm on Diesel a long time ago. And lost but didn't have the nerve to admit and switch.
- rhaway84773 3y agoAnd the Japanese bet on hydrogen. Both leaders have now become followers in the industry.
- freedude 3y agoBEV's are not proven over the course of history. If anything they have already failed once. The first time they failed was because of the lack of infrastructure. The economics of ICE are well proven. If the BEV cannot be viable without legislation that should tell you something is dramatically wrong with them, not encourage more legislation.
- iand675 3y agoThe writing has been on the wall for 5+ years that government bodies would eventually legislate this, even for casual observers. If these auto manufacturers as industry insiders couldn’t plan ahead to handle this outcome, it sounds like they might deserve to be unseated.
- rolph 3y ago>>auto manufacturers<< i forget the corporation, but i recall an ad depicting a CEO, telling the team "were not in the oil business were in the energy business" likewise, --were not in the ICE automotive business, were in the private transportation business-- sounds parallel.
- PM_me_your_math 3y agoThat's funny considering the church of climatology can't exist without government subsidy.
- _aavaa_ 3y agoNeither can the current fossil fuel industry. Either through explicit subsidies, or through implicit ones by allowing them to use the environment as their free sewer.
- kjghkjghkjgh 3y agoThe fossil fuel industry can exist fine without subsidies. Where else can people get cheaper fuel?
- _aavaa_ 3y agoAgain, the fuel is cheap only because they aren't being charged for the externalities (e.g. CO2e) that the fuel produces.
- verdverm 3y agoThe politicians often change or reverse laws, should they plan based on the law or the consumers. Personally, I think it quite likely that all these government deadlines for ICE will not be met and the changeover will take much longer than hoped. We don't even know if the manufactures can make enough EVs in these time frames, we still have hurdles for battery and electricity distribution. All that energy in liquid form has to now go ever wires, which are showing strains already. Imagine the entire vehicle fleet needing to feed off that same system, we need to put a ton of resources into the grid
- whatsup7123 3y agoDoesn't this mean that everyone who owns a gas car right now needs to by an EV by 2035? Not everyone can afford EVs - so how would this work? Also, EV charging infrastructure is way behind gas. I can fill up gasoline anywhere but there are far fewer EV stations. I applaud our switch to clean energy but this proposed law seems very aggressive.
- wkat4242 3y agoNo. It doesn't mean that, it means that they can't be sold new anymore from 2035 onwards. So someone wanting to stay on gas can still buy a brand new 2034 one and drive it for decades. Though I expect they will be eschewed from city centers like older diesels are already. Gas cars will still be around long after 2035 this is why this is not actually very ambitious in terms of climate mitigation. And now BMW wants to weaken it further.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>So someone wanting to stay on gas can still buy a brand new 2034 one and drive it for decades. Have you seen how difficult it still is to buy some new cars, as in the waiting times? If you wait for 2034 to buy a new car, you'll never get it. I expect that by 2030, the backlog of orders will e full already till the end of production in 2035.
- wkat4242 3y agoNo I haven't owned a car for years. But I think the demand will drop anyway. Especially here in Europe we're not so invested in gas guzzlers (and cars in general really depending on the country). Cars tend to be very compact, so much that American movies often make fun of them.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>But I think the demand will drop anyway. That's your bubble talking, the reality goes in the other direction.
- wkat4242 3y agoNot banning poses an imminent risk to all global citizens
- g42gregory 3y agoNot sure if this was meant sarcastically. If not, why would this be the case?
- Dig1t 3y agoDecades of propaganda has lead to a large portion of the population believing that the world will end soon if climate change isn’t fixed.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wkat4242 3y agoIt won't end as a whole no. Humanity will continue but many areas will become uninhabitable. Of course some others like Siberia will become more habitable. But this has the potential of causing mass migration and therefore serious conflict because this will affect borders. As a result, wars making things worse both direct by hurting people and indirect by even more energy consumption. One way or another it will make life worse for everyone
- wkat4242 3y agoYou haven't seen what's happening already? Now picture that the emissions causing the current climate upheaval were emitted decades ago. We're already way behind the curve. It's going to get worse already. Letting things get even worse in the future is a serious risk to everyone.
- PM_me_your_math 3y agoIn the last 70 years, not a single dire risk warning from the church of climatology has come true. Not one. But now we're super-cereal! Believe us this time guys. It will happen unless you buy products and services from ESG cult companies in my portfolio...
- rolph 3y ago--Poses “Imminent Risk” to European Automakers-- i would think thats an intended feature crucial to the function.
- freedude 3y agoToo bad for the folks that work there and the massive amounts of GDP that will now go to China.
- mint2 3y agoDidn’t bmw introduce an early EV in terms of big manufacturers, but then sat on their thumbs for years while others caught up and went ahead?
- petre 3y agoMeanwhile in Greece. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torrential-rain-follows-summer-wildfires-greece-one-dead-2023-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torrential-rain-follows... I couldn't care less about BMW wining. They should start making tanks and APCs to sell to Ukraine and Eastern flank states if they're uncapable of building zero emission vehicles for civilian use. 40% exhibitors at the Munich motor show were Chinese companies, possibly showing off all electric models with chair heating that doesn't require a subscription.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>Meanwhile in Greece. Do you think we won't have extreme weather phenomenons anymore if BMW stopped selling ICE cars? Building an EV generates 1,7x as much CO2 as building an ICE car. And if we were to replace all ICE cars o the road with EVs, we would need the resources of 1,5x planet earths. And even if we had enough resources on this single planet, replacing all ICEs with EVs would complexly destroy the environment anyway in the process due to mining and CO2. This isn't a BMW vs Tesla problem anymore, it's an Earth problem. If you were to shut down BMW tomorrow, the CO2 needle will not move. Un-doing all the environmental damage requires more than switching from ICEs to EVs, it requires a complete overhaul of our consumerist societies, and a backtrack on our unsustainable standards of living.
- petre 3y agoNo, but it's very hypocritical. They should at least have the decency to shut up. But BMW cars and decency is a contradiction in terms. What's even worse is that almost every European automaker, including Renault is now copying their butt ugly X class hatchbacks on steroids. Don't care if they build EVs or hydrogen burning ICE cars as long as I don't have to inhale smoke while tailing another vehicle or just walking or cycling along a busy road. If they converted current vehicles to burn H2 it would be even better.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>No, but it's very hypocritical. They should at least have the decency to shut up. That's not hypocritical, they're just saying it as it is. A failure of the european auto sector will mean waves of unemployment and a recession. It would be an economic disaster of biblic proportions of the Eurozone, regardless of the state of the environment. And voters and politicians first and foremost care abut having pensions, jobs to buy food and a roof over their head and will vote for that before the environment. It's a tragedy of the commons. The big German automakers screwed the pooch on electrification, falling behind Tesla and China, but since they're too big to fail for the EU economy, are throwing the weight around to have things their way and they'll most likely get it. >Don't care if they build EVs or hydrogen burning ICE cars as long as I don't have to inhale smoke while tailing another car or just walking along a busy road. Ok, but what does the state of cars in your city have to do with Greece's extreme weather phenomenons? If you had EVs everywhere now in your neighbourhood, those phenomenons would still happen as pollution still continues. No matter what bs Elon said, switching to EVs, does not magically fix the planet. Manufacturing EVs is more environmentally damaging than ICEs. Most of the earth's environmental damage doesn't come form Avergae Joe driving to work in his BMW. >If they converted current vehicles to burn H2 it would be equally awesome. Are we just making up fantasy situations now?
- PeterStuer 3y agoCurrently EV charging in many places in Europe is a joke. If anyone was serious about a rapid change to EV every city would be an apocaliptic building site by now for all the required upgrades to the old electric infrastructure. This is not happening.
- pkulak 3y ago> Currently EV charging in many places in Europe is a joke. So what. It's time to move, not wait around indefinitely for some perfect time to switch. Even if there wasn't a single public EV charger in all of Europe, it would still be time to ban gasoline cars. EDIT: Wow, HN really loves burning gasoline. My kids are in a LOT of trouble. My city, which is farther North than Toronto, Canada, just hit 116f a couple years ago, and now reliably spends at least a week with highs above 100. If you guys can't even imagine another way to get around, things may be hopeless. People spend so much effort to defend wasting their lives stuck in traffic.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoBEVs currently are niche expensive cars. This won't really change in next few years. You are getting downvoted, because you are darting forward, leaving most of the society behind. What do you think, that will happen when you throw overboard 80% of people who can't afford BEV or don't have infrastructure to sustain it? Well they will be pissed and vote for somebody else, probably some right wing populist who will start undoing all the progress on the green regulations.
- rhaway84773 3y agoThe Chinese EV makers will change that very quickly if they haven’t already.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoIn the past, I have heard this about Japanese car makers, I have heard this about Korean car makers, now the song is about Chinese car makers.
- jiofj 3y ago[flagged]
- mjfl 3y agoI honestly have a deep respect for Europeans for the depth of their commitment to what they believe is right, which is so deep that they are essentially willing to commit suicide in order to remain relatively blameless in the climate change situation that will proceed forward regardless.
- martijnvds 3y agoSo you're saying, don't even try to do better?
- mjfl 3y agothe fact is that any 'good' coming from being alive cannot make up for the 'evil' that it costs if one is arbitrarily strict - the pain and injustice of cows dying to make food, the environment disturbed to ensure sufficient square footage of crop growth, the carbon emissions required to maintain a population above a certain level. In order to stay alive, in the face of an arbitrarily strict moralist, one must defiantly and violently insist on living. Don't do better, do worse.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago[flagged]
- hgomersall 3y agoIncreased storm severity across many parts of the world; Record temperatures in Europe; Antarctic ice shelf collapse; record low Arctic ice; weakening AMOC; coral bleaching; earlier springs with consequential impact on insects... Are you paying attention?
- hindsightbias 3y agoOne of Elon's kids should marry one of the Quandts.
- avar 3y agoI agree that the EU and the world needs to move aggressively on clean energy (including nuclear), climate change etc. But I really hate this tendency to overly micro-manage the economy. Yes, gasoline cars pollute, but then the solution is to price a mitigation of that pollution into gasoline, even if than means it'll cost 20€/liter. It's not to ban one particular category of devices that happens to use gasoline by some arbitrary date. It's especially stupid because out of all the users of gasoline, cars are some of the "cleanest" due to emissions regulations.
- cletusw 3y agoThen middle and upper class people will just keep on polluting at marginally lower rates. The only real solutions to this problem are ones that get the will & finances of the upper classes involved.
- avar 3y agoSo what? I'm suggesting pricing in the externalities. It's not a problem that you want to release a ton of CO^2, if scrubbing and permanently sequestering a corresponding ton of CO^2 is included in the price. Instead the EU wants to micro-manage the market, and only address some sources of pollution. They're not banning gasoline engines in general, and notably doing nothing about non-automotive gasoline engines, which relatively speaking are much bigger polluters.