5 ms·

An adult female human, of course.

by feltmann 3y ago

mrguyorama 3y ago
What defines a female human?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  A female is a living organism possessing (or having once possessed, if they were removed or destroyed through illness or injury) sexual organs designed to produce ova. A human is a member of the genus homo.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    So what sex/gender are people born without reproductive organs? Also, what does it mean for an organ to be "designed" to do something? Who or what is the designer?
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > So what sex/gender are people born without reproductive organs? Yes, biology is complicated, and a small fraction of a percent of humans are born with genitalia that are either absent/nearly absent or very close to midway between male and female. (Most people considered "intersex" are still pretty clearly male or female, and often genitalia that look ambiguous at birth will become less so as a person matures). In these rare cases, sex determination can be genuinely difficult/somewhat arbitrary (and I don't claim to be an expert). However, even in the ambiguous cases there are often factors that can favor one or another determination. In humans, sex develops as a response to various hormones. Everyone has at least one X chromosome which on its own induces the production of hormones/signaling factors leading to the development of female sexual organs secondary sexual characteristics. In people with a Y chromosome in addition to the X, that behavior is overridden by genes on Y to instead produce male genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics. In some intersex people, the genitalia are ambiguous but the presence or absence of Y chromosome expression still e affects secondary sexual characteristics to an extent that one sex assignation makes somewhat more sense than the other. But in any case, the extremely rare exceptions don't invalidate the general rule of human sex. As for gender, that's a purely grammatical concept. Nouns and pronouns can have gender, people don't. Or at least that was the original meaning of the word, before pedophile John Money appropriated it in the 1950s. A pre-50s Google Books search may surprise you: https://www.google.com/search?q=gender&sca_esv=562865996&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A1950&tbm=bks https://www.google.com/search?q=gender&sca_esv=562865996&tbs... > Who or what is the designer? The blind process of natural selection. Perhaps the word choice of "designed" wasn't the most correct, but it's shorter than "most similar to a structure that would allow it to do the thing."
      - skyyler 3y ago
        >But in any case, the extremely rare exceptions don't invalidate the general rule of human sex. Things aren’t as clean cut as you desire them to be. I don’t know how rare you think this stuff is but I’m fairly confident it isn’t that rare. Question for you: why do you care so much about gender?
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Things aren’t as clean cut as you desire them to be. Things are exactly how they are, wishing for human nature to be different is a pointless enterprise that I try my best to avoid. > I don’t know how rare you think this stuff is but I’m fairly confident it isn’t that rare. Luckily, a simple Internet search can settle the question for you! > Why do you care so much about gender? I don't care much about gender, it's just a grammatical concept (honestly, less interesting than verb tenses or noun declensions). I care a lot about sex, because it's intimately linked to reproduction, which is the strongest human instinct, without it human life would not exist. Kind of like how people care about "food" and "water".
        skyyler 3y ago
        >I care a lot about sex, because it's intimately linked to reproduction, which is the strongest human instinct, without it human life would not exist. So you think the existence of trans people will end sexual reproduction? Could you be a little more clear?
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > So you think the existence of trans people will end sexual reproduction? I never even mentioned transsexualism, don't know where you are getting that from?
        skyyler 3y ago
        So could you be more clear? Why do you so desperately need to call this person a “man”?
- feltmann 3y ago
  A person who developed along the ovarian pathway (rather than testes pathway) when an embryo. Female humans have this in common with other female mammals, and a wide variety of other species too. The gonochoric ones anyway.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    >A person who developed along the ovarian pathway What is the ovarian pathway? Is it merely the existence of ovaries?
    - feltmann 3y ago
      It's the developmental pathway for the female reproductive system. My wording was chosen carefully to avoid the usual nitpicking that happens in these sort of discussions, e.g. what if the ovaries have since been removed, what if the ovaries are functionally impaired, etc.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        >It's the developmental pathway for the female reproductive system. That's pretty immediately a circular dependency though? The more important question is why anyone should take your reasoning over any other about what "Man" and "Woman" mean. Actually the most important question what makes something a "developmental pathway"? How do you define such? How do you distinguish two similar but different "developmental pathways"?
        feltmann 3y ago
        > That's pretty immediately a circular dependency though? By the female reproductive system, I meant the type that produces large gametes, and so on. Versus the male one that produces small gametes. > Actually the most important question what makes something a "developmental pathway"? How do you define such? How do you distinguish two similar but different "developmental pathways"? It's a very interesting question, here's what is known about this in humans, if you are curious: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279001 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279001 > The more important question is why anyone should take your reasoning over any other about what "Man" and "Woman" mean. What's your alternative, and why?

An adult female human, of course.

mrguyorama 3y ago

What defines a female human?

Georgelemental 3y ago
A female is a living organism possessing (or having once possessed, if they were removed or destroyed through illness or injury) sexual organs designed to produce ova. A human is a member of the genus homo.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  So what sex/gender are people born without reproductive organs? Also, what does it mean for an organ to be "designed" to do something? Who or what is the designer?
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > So what sex/gender are people born without reproductive organs? Yes, biology is complicated, and a small fraction of a percent of humans are born with genitalia that are either absent/nearly absent or very close to midway between male and female. (Most people considered "intersex" are still pretty clearly male or female, and often genitalia that look ambiguous at birth will become less so as a person matures). In these rare cases, sex determination can be genuinely difficult/somewhat arbitrary (and I don't claim to be an expert). However, even in the ambiguous cases there are often factors that can favor one or another determination. In humans, sex develops as a response to various hormones. Everyone has at least one X chromosome which on its own induces the production of hormones/signaling factors leading to the development of female sexual organs secondary sexual characteristics. In people with a Y chromosome in addition to the X, that behavior is overridden by genes on Y to instead produce male genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics. In some intersex people, the genitalia are ambiguous but the presence or absence of Y chromosome expression still e affects secondary sexual characteristics to an extent that one sex assignation makes somewhat more sense than the other. But in any case, the extremely rare exceptions don't invalidate the general rule of human sex. As for gender, that's a purely grammatical concept. Nouns and pronouns can have gender, people don't. Or at least that was the original meaning of the word, before pedophile John Money appropriated it in the 1950s. A pre-50s Google Books search may surprise you: https://www.google.com/search?q=gender&sca_esv=562865996&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A1950&tbm=bks https://www.google.com/search?q=gender&sca_esv=562865996&tbs... > Who or what is the designer? The blind process of natural selection. Perhaps the word choice of "designed" wasn't the most correct, but it's shorter than "most similar to a structure that would allow it to do the thing."
    - skyyler 3y ago
      >But in any case, the extremely rare exceptions don't invalidate the general rule of human sex. Things aren’t as clean cut as you desire them to be. I don’t know how rare you think this stuff is but I’m fairly confident it isn’t that rare. Question for you: why do you care so much about gender?
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        > Things aren’t as clean cut as you desire them to be. Things are exactly how they are, wishing for human nature to be different is a pointless enterprise that I try my best to avoid. > I don’t know how rare you think this stuff is but I’m fairly confident it isn’t that rare. Luckily, a simple Internet search can settle the question for you! > Why do you care so much about gender? I don't care much about gender, it's just a grammatical concept (honestly, less interesting than verb tenses or noun declensions). I care a lot about sex, because it's intimately linked to reproduction, which is the strongest human instinct, without it human life would not exist. Kind of like how people care about "food" and "water".
        skyyler 3y ago
        >I care a lot about sex, because it's intimately linked to reproduction, which is the strongest human instinct, without it human life would not exist. So you think the existence of trans people will end sexual reproduction? Could you be a little more clear?
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > So you think the existence of trans people will end sexual reproduction? I never even mentioned transsexualism, don't know where you are getting that from?
        skyyler 3y ago
        So could you be more clear? Why do you so desperately need to call this person a “man”?
feltmann 3y ago
A person who developed along the ovarian pathway (rather than testes pathway) when an embryo. Female humans have this in common with other female mammals, and a wide variety of other species too. The gonochoric ones anyway.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >A person who developed along the ovarian pathway What is the ovarian pathway? Is it merely the existence of ovaries?
  - feltmann 3y ago
    It's the developmental pathway for the female reproductive system. My wording was chosen carefully to avoid the usual nitpicking that happens in these sort of discussions, e.g. what if the ovaries have since been removed, what if the ovaries are functionally impaired, etc.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      >It's the developmental pathway for the female reproductive system. That's pretty immediately a circular dependency though? The more important question is why anyone should take your reasoning over any other about what "Man" and "Woman" mean. Actually the most important question what makes something a "developmental pathway"? How do you define such? How do you distinguish two similar but different "developmental pathways"?
      - feltmann 3y ago
        > That's pretty immediately a circular dependency though? By the female reproductive system, I meant the type that produces large gametes, and so on. Versus the male one that produces small gametes. > Actually the most important question what makes something a "developmental pathway"? How do you define such? How do you distinguish two similar but different "developmental pathways"? It's a very interesting question, here's what is known about this in humans, if you are curious: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279001 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279001 > The more important question is why anyone should take your reasoning over any other about what "Man" and "Woman" mean. What's your alternative, and why?