8 ms·

I'm sure attending therapy will make me feel tons better until I come home to crushing debt, inflation, sky-high CoL, a culture of overwork, climate degradation

I'm sure attending therapy will make me feel tons better until I come home to crushing debt, inflation, sky-high CoL, a culture of overwork, climate degradation, worthless jobs, a divided and failing middle-class, income disparity, lack of upward mobility, etc.

hmmmcurious1 3y ago
Yeah psychiatry is basically an effort to take all the collective sins society makes and drops them on your head, they say its your fault youre depressed. Similar to how religions made people feel guilty in the past so they can sell their religious message which is the only way out of this guilt.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Maybe in the 60s. Since then, it's always your parents' fault you're (whatever). The message for the last decade has been very much don't-feel-guilt-or-shame about anything, just blame those who came before you. Doesn't matter if your parents divorced, stayed together, were overattentive, were underattentive, were poor or were rich. It's their fault you're miserable. In reality, it's learned helplessness reinforced by social media and ongoing tech developments. Let me drive for you. Let me cook for you. Let me entertain you. Let me tell you what to believe. Let me write "your" speech for you and create "your" art for you. It's life in captivity. Animals in cages at the zoo are always miserable.
  - hmmmcurious1 3y ago
    The techniques and messages change but the underlying hypothesis remains. They say you are abnormal because you can see some things that are very simple like global warming. They condemn your human reaction to rebel against this and offer you a lobotomy to remain happy. It's not physical anymore but its still a lobotomy
    - jstarfish 3y ago
      > They say you are abnormal because you can see some things that are very simple like global warming. They condemn your human reaction to rebel against this and offer you a lobotomy to remain happy. This is the way things need to be though. You're not Elon Musk's rich uncle. If changing the fate of the entire world is your goal, you will die unaccomplished, frustrated and be miserable the entire time. It's beyond your control, even collectively, and obsessing about ambitions beyond your capabilities only leads to madness. Tend your own lot in life. Fix the things you can. "Climate is heating up" should not mean "design, launch and deploy a functional solar shield;" to you, it should mean "migrate somewhere cooler." Once you're capable of achieving small goals like saving your own ass, then you can afford to be more ambitious and worry about everyone else's.
      - chowells 3y ago
        Yeah, this is also wrong. If all you do is this, then if you have human empathy you'll be utterly miserable. You'll care about all the shit happening to other people, and the fact that you have managed to minimize the damage to yourself doesn't really change anything. Your options are to either eliminate your own sense of empathy, or advocate for broad change. Stoicism's great flaw is that it tells you to do the former.
        jstarfish 3y ago
        > If all you do is this Sure, but that's not what I was advocating at all. I was very particular with my words in suggesting tending your own lot first, then helping others instead of the other way around. (People that only look out for themselves generally don't need to be told to do so!) It's the plane-oxygen-mask situation. You can't fix global warming for everyone without securing money and influence for yourself. So focus on securing those first. Empathy unchecked by logic is just hysteria.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    That's not at all my experience with Therapy... Maybe you need to find a better therapist if all they are doing is teaching you to blame your parents for your problems and do nothing else.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  What are you, Scientologist? That's not how therapy works.
willcipriano 3y ago
Problem: People are leading unfulfilled lives and reporting they are depressed. My solution: Recenter your life around your family unit, do more physical activity, get off social media. Build a life worth living. The solution we went with: Take some pills so you can manage the horror of your disconnected life devoid of meaning and purpose. Problem: Energetic young boys are having trouble sitting in school for hours on end. My solution: Focus more on hands on activities, bring back woodshop and metalshop, include more breaks for physical activity during the day. The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls. It's easier (and more profitable) to feed people pills than to build a society that people are happy in so that's what we do, but hey the line went up!
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  > The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls. This is a bit inaccurate. ADHD is diagnosed more in boys than girls, but is way, way more debilitating than being energetic to the point where they may be incredibly dangerous in a woodshop or metalshop. It's not being able to keep track of each tool being used, or the order in which to use them. It's forgetting to turn machines off, and forgetting to unplug dangerous equipment. It's turning around to grab something and forgetting what you turned around for, and then forgetting the task you were doing before you realized you were missing a part. I would argue against treating ADHD like it's not a legitimate disability that requires accommodation. In the past, people with ADHD were just told they were stupid, lazy, or absentminded, when in reality they had a neurological disorder that had no diagnosis and no treatment at the time. That being said I overall agree with the fact that society doesn't allow for breathing room for people to be people and form human relationships that doesn't have a financial or economic angle. This is horrendous, and no amount of therapy or medication will resolve this fundamental, societal-level problem. But ADHD is real, acting like ADHD treatment is just societal feminization of men is a completely incorrect depiction of the disorder. We can simultaneously argue that the medical system is completely fucked and also acknowledge that sometimes you really do need a surgeon to repair broken legs!
  - gardenhedge 3y ago
serjester 3y ago
It's sad to see an entire generation of people adopting such a defeatist attitude, when objectively speaking we're living in some of the most prosperous times in all of history. Having grown up in post collapse USSR where every one of the issues you listed was 10X worse, it's genuinely disheartening to see so many people adopt an external locus of control and let it dictate their life.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  If you grew up in post collapse USSR, you aren't of the age where you have to deal with the problems the parent post describes. It's important to recognize your lack of personal experience with it. I'm not saying that post collapse USSR wasn't a bad time. It was an absolutely horrible time and I am glad you're here. But it's important to recognize people have different challenges and live different lives than you. I'm likely much younger than you. My parents were able to afford to raise me in a house they owned, at my current age. I am not and nowhere near that buying power. My parents can look forward to a retirement fund. I cannot. My parents were able to work through the summer to pay for their graduate degrees. Graduate degrees are too expensive for me to attain, now. My parents could afford to take me to the emergency room when I had fevers as a child. I cannot afford a single emergency room visit for anything.
- JohnClark1337 3y ago
  [dead]
missedthecue 3y ago
Do actually poor countries have higher rates of clinical and self-reported depression? Do Colombians or Tunisians suffer worse rates of mental illness than Americans? I am from a country where the median income is less than $10k, the gini coefficient is higher than the US, and where the six-day workweek is the norm. I literally don't know anyone on an SSRI. Sure, it's very possible someone is suffering in silence, but it's a far cry from when I studied in the United States and more than half of my classmates were medicated for mental disorders or went to therapists.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  I suppose it would help to look at statistical signs of depression then, such as national suicide rate, rates of alcoholism and substance abuse, etc.
- camdenlock 3y ago
  These are luxury diseases that you’ll only find in super-rich countries.
- christkv 3y ago
  If you have to scramble to live it’s hard to have time to self analyze like we do in the west. I’m sure serious mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder is similar. Might also be covered up more by societies as it used to be in the west due to the family shame aspect that was very prevalent.
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    Even with similar standards of living, culture can play a HUGE role in how these things are talked about. Look at Japan for example, which has a shockingly high rate of people who just... walk out of their own lives forever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouhatsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouhatsu The discussion around depression and anxiety is also relatively new in Japan, but at the same time the evidence of those issues is not, look at NEETs and Hikikomori, a high suicide rate, and the aforementioned Jōhatsu! The thing is that in Japan there's a very strong tendency to keep that sort of thing in the family, keep it away from prying eyes. Your point about how shame works in different cultures is right on the mark IMO.

hmmmcurious1 3y ago

Yeah psychiatry is basically an effort to take all the collective sins society makes and drops them on your head, they say its your fault youre depressed. Similar to how religions made people feel guilty in the past so they can sell their religious message which is the only way out of this guilt.

jstarfish 3y ago
Maybe in the 60s. Since then, it's always your parents' fault you're (whatever). The message for the last decade has been very much don't-feel-guilt-or-shame about anything, just blame those who came before you. Doesn't matter if your parents divorced, stayed together, were overattentive, were underattentive, were poor or were rich. It's their fault you're miserable. In reality, it's learned helplessness reinforced by social media and ongoing tech developments. Let me drive for you. Let me cook for you. Let me entertain you. Let me tell you what to believe. Let me write "your" speech for you and create "your" art for you. It's life in captivity. Animals in cages at the zoo are always miserable.
- hmmmcurious1 3y ago
  The techniques and messages change but the underlying hypothesis remains. They say you are abnormal because you can see some things that are very simple like global warming. They condemn your human reaction to rebel against this and offer you a lobotomy to remain happy. It's not physical anymore but its still a lobotomy
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > They say you are abnormal because you can see some things that are very simple like global warming. They condemn your human reaction to rebel against this and offer you a lobotomy to remain happy. This is the way things need to be though. You're not Elon Musk's rich uncle. If changing the fate of the entire world is your goal, you will die unaccomplished, frustrated and be miserable the entire time. It's beyond your control, even collectively, and obsessing about ambitions beyond your capabilities only leads to madness. Tend your own lot in life. Fix the things you can. "Climate is heating up" should not mean "design, launch and deploy a functional solar shield;" to you, it should mean "migrate somewhere cooler." Once you're capable of achieving small goals like saving your own ass, then you can afford to be more ambitious and worry about everyone else's.
    - chowells 3y ago
      Yeah, this is also wrong. If all you do is this, then if you have human empathy you'll be utterly miserable. You'll care about all the shit happening to other people, and the fact that you have managed to minimize the damage to yourself doesn't really change anything. Your options are to either eliminate your own sense of empathy, or advocate for broad change. Stoicism's great flaw is that it tells you to do the former.
      - jstarfish 3y ago
        > If all you do is this Sure, but that's not what I was advocating at all. I was very particular with my words in suggesting tending your own lot first, then helping others instead of the other way around. (People that only look out for themselves generally don't need to be told to do so!) It's the plane-oxygen-mask situation. You can't fix global warming for everyone without securing money and influence for yourself. So focus on securing those first. Empathy unchecked by logic is just hysteria.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  That's not at all my experience with Therapy... Maybe you need to find a better therapist if all they are doing is teaching you to blame your parents for your problems and do nothing else.
mrguyorama 3y ago
What are you, Scientologist? That's not how therapy works.

willcipriano 3y ago

Problem: People are leading unfulfilled lives and reporting they are depressed. My solution: Recenter your life around your family unit, do more physical activity, get off social media. Build a life worth living. The solution we went with: Take some pills so you can manage the horror of your disconnected life devoid of meaning and purpose. Problem: Energetic young boys are having trouble sitting in school for hours on end. My solution: Focus more on hands on activities, bring back woodshop and metalshop, include more breaks for physical activity during the day. The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls. It's easier (and more profitable) to feed people pills than to build a society that people are happy in so that's what we do, but hey the line went up!

EatingWithForks 3y ago
> The solution we went with: Get the boys so high on stimulants they can sit still like the girls. This is a bit inaccurate. ADHD is diagnosed more in boys than girls, but is way, way more debilitating than being energetic to the point where they may be incredibly dangerous in a woodshop or metalshop. It's not being able to keep track of each tool being used, or the order in which to use them. It's forgetting to turn machines off, and forgetting to unplug dangerous equipment. It's turning around to grab something and forgetting what you turned around for, and then forgetting the task you were doing before you realized you were missing a part. I would argue against treating ADHD like it's not a legitimate disability that requires accommodation. In the past, people with ADHD were just told they were stupid, lazy, or absentminded, when in reality they had a neurological disorder that had no diagnosis and no treatment at the time. That being said I overall agree with the fact that society doesn't allow for breathing room for people to be people and form human relationships that doesn't have a financial or economic angle. This is horrendous, and no amount of therapy or medication will resolve this fundamental, societal-level problem. But ADHD is real, acting like ADHD treatment is just societal feminization of men is a completely incorrect depiction of the disorder. We can simultaneously argue that the medical system is completely fucked and also acknowledge that sometimes you really do need a surgeon to repair broken legs!
- gardenhedge 3y ago

serjester 3y ago

It's sad to see an entire generation of people adopting such a defeatist attitude, when objectively speaking we're living in some of the most prosperous times in all of history. Having grown up in post collapse USSR where every one of the issues you listed was 10X worse, it's genuinely disheartening to see so many people adopt an external locus of control and let it dictate their life.

EatingWithForks 3y ago
If you grew up in post collapse USSR, you aren't of the age where you have to deal with the problems the parent post describes. It's important to recognize your lack of personal experience with it. I'm not saying that post collapse USSR wasn't a bad time. It was an absolutely horrible time and I am glad you're here. But it's important to recognize people have different challenges and live different lives than you. I'm likely much younger than you. My parents were able to afford to raise me in a house they owned, at my current age. I am not and nowhere near that buying power. My parents can look forward to a retirement fund. I cannot. My parents were able to work through the summer to pay for their graduate degrees. Graduate degrees are too expensive for me to attain, now. My parents could afford to take me to the emergency room when I had fevers as a child. I cannot afford a single emergency room visit for anything.
JohnClark1337 3y ago
[dead]

missedthecue 3y ago

Do actually poor countries have higher rates of clinical and self-reported depression? Do Colombians or Tunisians suffer worse rates of mental illness than Americans? I am from a country where the median income is less than $10k, the gini coefficient is higher than the US, and where the six-day workweek is the norm. I literally don't know anyone on an SSRI. Sure, it's very possible someone is suffering in silence, but it's a far cry from when I studied in the United States and more than half of my classmates were medicated for mental disorders or went to therapists.

EA-3167 3y ago
I suppose it would help to look at statistical signs of depression then, such as national suicide rate, rates of alcoholism and substance abuse, etc.
camdenlock 3y ago
These are luxury diseases that you’ll only find in super-rich countries.
christkv 3y ago
If you have to scramble to live it’s hard to have time to self analyze like we do in the west. I’m sure serious mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder is similar. Might also be covered up more by societies as it used to be in the west due to the family shame aspect that was very prevalent.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  Even with similar standards of living, culture can play a HUGE role in how these things are talked about. Look at Japan for example, which has a shockingly high rate of people who just... walk out of their own lives forever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouhatsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouhatsu The discussion around depression and anxiety is also relatively new in Japan, but at the same time the evidence of those issues is not, look at NEETs and Hikikomori, a high suicide rate, and the aforementioned Jōhatsu! The thing is that in Japan there's a very strong tendency to keep that sort of thing in the family, keep it away from prying eyes. Your point about how shame works in different cultures is right on the mark IMO.