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A lack of civic knowledge among the populace is a failure of the education system, not the people themselves. If you give people the obligations of living in a

A lack of civic knowledge among the populace is a failure of the education system, not the people themselves. If you give people the obligations of living in a democracy (paying taxes, subjecting themselves to its laws, signing up for the draft, etc.) without actually letting them participate in that democracy, then it's not a democracy anymore. 85%[0] of Americans don't know when the Constitution was written; 61% of Americans don't know the three branches of government.[1] Barring well over half of Americans from voting would not end well. [0]https://woodrow.org/news/how-well-americans-know-constitution/ https://woodrow.org/news/how-well-americans-know-constitutio... [1]https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/americans-know-more-about-civics-but-numbers-still-dismally-low-researchers-say/2019/09 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/americans-know-more...

cheeseomlit 3y ago
They don't know these things because they don't care to know, there's no other excuse when you're living in the information age. You don't need a teacher to tell you how many branches of government there are. I agree that it's a massive failure of the education system, but not solely- there's plenty of blame to go around. In practice I don't think 85% of Americans would be unqualified based on those stats, those numbers would improve dramatically if the incentive were there (IE. know these things or don't vote). >If you give people the obligations of living in a democracy (paying taxes, subjecting themselves to its laws, signing up for the draft, etc.) without actually letting them participate in that democracy, then it's not a democracy anymore. I see your point but I don't consider democracy to be a binary condition, it exists in degrees- IE. voting directly for policies vs. electing representatives to do so, etc. If one were barred from democratic participation on a permanent basis for reasons they have no control over, IE. Race/Sex, then yes democratic principles have been violated. But if all they have to do is learn some basic facts about the history of the institution they are participating in, I don't see that as 'not letting' them vote. It's more 'if you really care about voting you'll do some basic due diligence first'.
- calgarymicro 3y ago
  > They don't know these things because they don't care to know Or they don't have the time or wherewithal to study for a test for whatever reason. This is the problem with trying to apply a standard to 300 million people - if 0.5% of people are the corner cases, there are 1.5 million corner cases. There are actually 14 million households in the US without internet access.[0] > I don't see that as 'not letting' them vote. It's more 'if you really care about voting you'll do some basic due diligence first The fact is that in order to implement this, you would have to turn away people who show up to the polls having fulfilled their end of the social contract (paying taxes, following laws, etc.). You lose the consent of the governed. And even that ignores the question of who would write and grade the test in the first place - the US has a sordid history of literacy tests being used to intentionally exclude certain groups from the franchise, and you'd have to find someone (definitely not Vivek) who could be trusted to do that job. Having the best of intentions doesn't matter when the choice of which questions to include/excluded can swing elections and disenfranchise millions. [0]https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/internet-access-study https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/internet-access-st...
  - cheeseomlit 3y ago
    >Or they don't have the time or wherewithal to study for a test for whatever reason. Then they certainly don't have the time or wherewithal to vote as an informed constituent. They'll base their vote on an ad they saw on the TV, or blind party affiliation. What else can they do if they don't know the most basic facts about the institution they're participating in? >The fact is that in order to implement this, you would have to turn away people who show up to the polls having fulfilled their end of the social contract (paying taxes, following laws, etc.). In that case I would consider adding 'have basic knowledge of the democratic processes you participate in' to the social contract. It's no more onerous of a requirement than paying taxes IMO And your point on 'who writes/grades the test' is a very valid one, as you say there is a history of using such measures for political repression. You'd have to be very careful and vigilant about setting it up in a fair and bipartisan manner, which unfortunately I have little hope for. I'm more attracted to the principle of the measure than how it'd likely play out in reality.

cheeseomlit 3y ago

They don't know these things because they don't care to know, there's no other excuse when you're living in the information age. You don't need a teacher to tell you how many branches of government there are. I agree that it's a massive failure of the education system, but not solely- there's plenty of blame to go around. In practice I don't think 85% of Americans would be unqualified based on those stats, those numbers would improve dramatically if the incentive were there (IE. know these things or don't vote). >If you give people the obligations of living in a democracy (paying taxes, subjecting themselves to its laws, signing up for the draft, etc.) without actually letting them participate in that democracy, then it's not a democracy anymore. I see your point but I don't consider democracy to be a binary condition, it exists in degrees- IE. voting directly for policies vs. electing representatives to do so, etc. If one were barred from democratic participation on a permanent basis for reasons they have no control over, IE. Race/Sex, then yes democratic principles have been violated. But if all they have to do is learn some basic facts about the history of the institution they are participating in, I don't see that as 'not letting' them vote. It's more 'if you really care about voting you'll do some basic due diligence first'.

calgarymicro 3y ago
> They don't know these things because they don't care to know Or they don't have the time or wherewithal to study for a test for whatever reason. This is the problem with trying to apply a standard to 300 million people - if 0.5% of people are the corner cases, there are 1.5 million corner cases. There are actually 14 million households in the US without internet access.[0] > I don't see that as 'not letting' them vote. It's more 'if you really care about voting you'll do some basic due diligence first The fact is that in order to implement this, you would have to turn away people who show up to the polls having fulfilled their end of the social contract (paying taxes, following laws, etc.). You lose the consent of the governed. And even that ignores the question of who would write and grade the test in the first place - the US has a sordid history of literacy tests being used to intentionally exclude certain groups from the franchise, and you'd have to find someone (definitely not Vivek) who could be trusted to do that job. Having the best of intentions doesn't matter when the choice of which questions to include/excluded can swing elections and disenfranchise millions. [0]https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/internet-access-study https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/internet-access-st...
- cheeseomlit 3y ago
  >Or they don't have the time or wherewithal to study for a test for whatever reason. Then they certainly don't have the time or wherewithal to vote as an informed constituent. They'll base their vote on an ad they saw on the TV, or blind party affiliation. What else can they do if they don't know the most basic facts about the institution they're participating in? >The fact is that in order to implement this, you would have to turn away people who show up to the polls having fulfilled their end of the social contract (paying taxes, following laws, etc.). In that case I would consider adding 'have basic knowledge of the democratic processes you participate in' to the social contract. It's no more onerous of a requirement than paying taxes IMO And your point on 'who writes/grades the test' is a very valid one, as you say there is a history of using such measures for political repression. You'd have to be very careful and vigilant about setting it up in a fair and bipartisan manner, which unfortunately I have little hope for. I'm more attracted to the principle of the measure than how it'd likely play out in reality.