3 ms·

> Meanwhile, patients need 6 weeks of physical therapy before they can get an MRI as a direct result of a lack of helium. Even diagnostic MRIs in which PT is no

> Meanwhile, patients need 6 weeks of physical therapy before they can get an MRI as a direct result of a lack of helium. Even diagnostic MRIs in which PT is not indicated. I've never heard of this, can you link to something discussing this?

SoftTalker 3y ago
Due to the cost of an MRI procedure, most insurers will require 6 weeks of PT/rehab efforts on an injury before covering the cost of an MRI. I guess GP is attributing the cost of the MRI to the helium required to cool the magnet, but I'm not sure that's a big fraction of the amortized cost for a single procedure -- a reference would be good.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
  A counter-reference from a Jan 2023 newsletter from the Radiological Society of North America - https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-mri https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-m... "Despite news reports in October that the world is running out of helium, clinical MRI units throughout the U.S. were and remain unaffected." I wouldn't be surprised if some patients are given bad info by either clinic or insurer. Blaming a global shortage, real or perceived, points the patient's emotional response away from the provider.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    At a gut level I would be inclined to agree. I've had an MRI (and had to do the prerequisite 6 weeks of PT). The MRI is a huge machine. It's in its own room, and they have to be careful about allowing any metal too close to it. The scan itself took about an hour for a couple of different views, a tech had to get my body in the right position and support it with various pads and pillows. You cannot move at all, and if you do, they have to start over. Given the time for the scan itself, plus any setup and cleaning they might have to do, I'd guess one machine could do a dozen or so scans per day. At the hospital I went to, they only did scans two days per week, I don't know if that was because they had limited staff or they need to allow for maintenance/calibration of the machine. Also I had a scan with contrast, and the doc who did the contrast injection also had limited availability. So there are real limits on the supply of MRI time, my guess is that this drives the price more than anything. It's not like an X-ray that just takes a few minutes.
- vidarh 3y ago
  Some searches indicates most newer MRI's are "zero boil-off" machines that recondense most of the helium, and that even older, leaky MRI's might be using (losing) at most ~$20k helium per year. I'm in London, a MRI here starts at around ~250 pounds or ca. $315. Meanwhile $20k worth of helium replacement would be ~$55/day spread across all uses of the machine. So I'm inclined to think you're right. The more likely reason for the 6 week PT: Most things for which you as a patient might want an MRI for that aren't obviously not something physio will help with are things you will end up needing physio for. I'm assuming they've done a simple cost benefit analysis where the proportion of cases where they actually need MRI's are low enough that it's cheaper to just send people straight to physio first.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    The cost of an MRI in the USA is at least 10x that number. That is why they generally require PT first. Of course if you're an athlete at the major college or professional level, you can get one immediately.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > cost of an MRI in the USA is at least 10x that number I got a whole-body MRI in New York. It was under $1,000.
      - seanp2k2 3y ago
        after insurance Post the prices that your insurance provider paid to the hospital for a real comparison.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        It was a voluntary whole-body MRI. This was my out of pocket expense and the provider’s revenue. No insurance.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      Is that for full body scans? Prices here do vary a lot, and you certainly can end up paying 10x that price for a full body scan from an expensive provider with a bunch of extras (though judging by a couple, some of those extras are cheap/"free" (on the NHS) blood tests tacked on for no good reason other than to jack up the price). [You can get full scans for significantly less too, at least down to $1300 - I haven't looked very thoroughly -, but most people opting for full body scans are not doing so to address a specific known issue, so the prices reflect that it's a luxury service that's rarely needed, and the price lists are full of pointless upsells] If the 10x is for specific body parts, it might pay to take a short trip to do your MRI's rather than pay out of pocket where you are then.
Wistar 3y ago
Although not specifically about the PT requirement, some stuff on the helium shortage across healthcare, research, and business. NBC: “The world is running out of helium. Here's why doctors are worried.” https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/helium-shortage-doctors-are-worried-running-element-threaten-mris-rcna52978 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/helium-shortage-d... Radiological Society of North America: “Keeping An Eye on the Potential Shortage of Helium for MRIs” https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-mri https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-m... The Harvard Crimson: “Helium Shortage Forces Harvard Physics Labs to Shut Down Equipment, Suspend Projects” https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/6/24/helium-shortage-2022/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/6/24/helium-shortage... Marketplace: “Party City’s Bankruptcy partly due to high cost of helium” https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/19/heliums-been-rising-in-price-and-its-bringing-businesses-down/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/19/heliums-been-rising-i...
stronglikedan 3y ago
I can't link to anything, but I can offer my own personal experience of having to pay for 6 weeks of physical therapy before they would give me an MRI for my knee. I just opted to look up the routine online and rehab myself. I'd have gladly paid my MRI copay, but I'm not paying for PT without even knowing if I need it yet.
- trogdor 3y ago
  I use Radiology Assist for easy, self-pay imaging. You can look up the actual cost of whatever scan you are interested in, at a facility near you, on their website. A few days ago I scheduled a 3 Tesla knee MRI, on the exact day I wanted - next week. My total cost is $375, and that includes a report by a radiologist, and a copy of the MRI images. (I tore my ACL in March and opted for physical therapy instead of surgery. My knee feels like it’s at 100% and PT tests show no difference in performance between my knees. I’m interested in seeing the degree to which there has been healing, if at all. I self-paid for my initial MRI back in April as well. It would have been more expensive through insurance!)

SoftTalker 3y ago

Due to the cost of an MRI procedure, most insurers will require 6 weeks of PT/rehab efforts on an injury before covering the cost of an MRI. I guess GP is attributing the cost of the MRI to the helium required to cool the magnet, but I'm not sure that's a big fraction of the amortized cost for a single procedure -- a reference would be good.

sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
A counter-reference from a Jan 2023 newsletter from the Radiological Society of North America - https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-mri https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-m... "Despite news reports in October that the world is running out of helium, clinical MRI units throughout the U.S. were and remain unaffected." I wouldn't be surprised if some patients are given bad info by either clinic or insurer. Blaming a global shortage, real or perceived, points the patient's emotional response away from the provider.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  At a gut level I would be inclined to agree. I've had an MRI (and had to do the prerequisite 6 weeks of PT). The MRI is a huge machine. It's in its own room, and they have to be careful about allowing any metal too close to it. The scan itself took about an hour for a couple of different views, a tech had to get my body in the right position and support it with various pads and pillows. You cannot move at all, and if you do, they have to start over. Given the time for the scan itself, plus any setup and cleaning they might have to do, I'd guess one machine could do a dozen or so scans per day. At the hospital I went to, they only did scans two days per week, I don't know if that was because they had limited staff or they need to allow for maintenance/calibration of the machine. Also I had a scan with contrast, and the doc who did the contrast injection also had limited availability. So there are real limits on the supply of MRI time, my guess is that this drives the price more than anything. It's not like an X-ray that just takes a few minutes.
vidarh 3y ago
Some searches indicates most newer MRI's are "zero boil-off" machines that recondense most of the helium, and that even older, leaky MRI's might be using (losing) at most ~$20k helium per year. I'm in London, a MRI here starts at around ~250 pounds or ca. $315. Meanwhile $20k worth of helium replacement would be ~$55/day spread across all uses of the machine. So I'm inclined to think you're right. The more likely reason for the 6 week PT: Most things for which you as a patient might want an MRI for that aren't obviously not something physio will help with are things you will end up needing physio for. I'm assuming they've done a simple cost benefit analysis where the proportion of cases where they actually need MRI's are low enough that it's cheaper to just send people straight to physio first.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  The cost of an MRI in the USA is at least 10x that number. That is why they generally require PT first. Of course if you're an athlete at the major college or professional level, you can get one immediately.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > cost of an MRI in the USA is at least 10x that number I got a whole-body MRI in New York. It was under $1,000.
    - seanp2k2 3y ago
      after insurance Post the prices that your insurance provider paid to the hospital for a real comparison.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        It was a voluntary whole-body MRI. This was my out of pocket expense and the provider’s revenue. No insurance.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Is that for full body scans? Prices here do vary a lot, and you certainly can end up paying 10x that price for a full body scan from an expensive provider with a bunch of extras (though judging by a couple, some of those extras are cheap/"free" (on the NHS) blood tests tacked on for no good reason other than to jack up the price). [You can get full scans for significantly less too, at least down to $1300 - I haven't looked very thoroughly -, but most people opting for full body scans are not doing so to address a specific known issue, so the prices reflect that it's a luxury service that's rarely needed, and the price lists are full of pointless upsells] If the 10x is for specific body parts, it might pay to take a short trip to do your MRI's rather than pay out of pocket where you are then.

Wistar 3y ago

Although not specifically about the PT requirement, some stuff on the helium shortage across healthcare, research, and business. NBC: “The world is running out of helium. Here's why doctors are worried.” https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/helium-shortage-doctors-are-worried-running-element-threaten-mris-rcna52978 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/helium-shortage-d... Radiological Society of North America: “Keeping An Eye on the Potential Shortage of Helium for MRIs” https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-mri https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-m... The Harvard Crimson: “Helium Shortage Forces Harvard Physics Labs to Shut Down Equipment, Suspend Projects” https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/6/24/helium-shortage-2022/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/6/24/helium-shortage... Marketplace: “Party City’s Bankruptcy partly due to high cost of helium” https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/19/heliums-been-rising-in-price-and-its-bringing-businesses-down/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/19/heliums-been-rising-i...

stronglikedan 3y ago

I can't link to anything, but I can offer my own personal experience of having to pay for 6 weeks of physical therapy before they would give me an MRI for my knee. I just opted to look up the routine online and rehab myself. I'd have gladly paid my MRI copay, but I'm not paying for PT without even knowing if I need it yet.

trogdor 3y ago
I use Radiology Assist for easy, self-pay imaging. You can look up the actual cost of whatever scan you are interested in, at a facility near you, on their website. A few days ago I scheduled a 3 Tesla knee MRI, on the exact day I wanted - next week. My total cost is $375, and that includes a report by a radiologist, and a copy of the MRI images. (I tore my ACL in March and opted for physical therapy instead of surgery. My knee feels like it’s at 100% and PT tests show no difference in performance between my knees. I’m interested in seeing the degree to which there has been healing, if at all. I self-paid for my initial MRI back in April as well. It would have been more expensive through insurance!)