3 ms·

None of us individually can fix the problem we're faced with, but I'll tell you what we can do: Be the biggest possible pains in the ass about it, and that's ex

by jchw 3y ago

None of us individually can fix the problem we're faced with, but I'll tell you what we can do: Be the biggest possible pains in the ass about it, and that's exactly what I intend to do. I'm planning on digging my heels as deep as they go and just causing as much trouble for everyone. Believe me, if my browser gets blocked based on user agent, the owners will hear about it. I will bypass it. (I am bypassing it in many cases.) If you try to push me to a mobile app, I'm either going to find a way to use your website, or I'm taking my business elsewhere at basically any cost necessary. For me, the end of the open web is scorched earth. I intend to gain approximately nothing from this, and I don't care.

horsawlarway 3y ago
Yeah - No joke, I'm right there with you. I just don't think it will matter. There is too much money on the table, and too much pressure on the "security" front to get most of the people implementing this to just... stop. They have rational reasons for doing the things they're doing, and they're sitting in the "corporate developer" spot, which will still get the goodies like a real server that can run real code. I'd like to see some real government regulation... my basic stance is - if I own the device, I should get a key to EVERY fucking lock it has, including all the digital ones. Which seems very sane, and completely mirrors the same stance for ownership of things like houses and cars (the owner gets all the keys). But the government (at least in the US) has lodged the corporate phallus SO far down its fucking throat it's literally choking to death. So I don't expect any miracles.
- cmurf 3y ago
  But you don't really own the device. Since day 1 Apple has been opposed to this on all their hardware, but most especially iOS hardware. You have the right to use it as they provide, or destroy it. Ergo you own the physical device minus all firmware and software. You have no right to inspect, understand or modify the firmware or software in any way. By extension, there is no right to repair. This highly successful paradigm is now replicated by John Deere, and Tesla. WiFi radios are being locked down. I remember folks on HN warning of the slippery slope a decade ago, universally shot down. Security!
  - horsawlarway 3y ago
    Sure, and this is why I utterly refuse to buy Apple hardware (note - I'm still forced to use Apple hardware by my place of employment... sort of making my point). It's also why I've chosen to do things like selfhost my own services, run my own computing hardware (literally sitting in my basement), contribute to and fund open source initiatives, and continue arguing that the government should regulate this behavior. Because frankly... I agree with you: it's a highly successful paradigm. If left alone and unregulated, companies that don't abuse their customers in this manner will become less and less prevalent. I call it "the little green man" paradigm: They have a literal enforcer sitting inside your phone who only answers to them. They use that little green man to extort rent from you for services and goods that shouldn't require any sort of ongoing or recurring expense, but will... because rents * * cough * * excuse me, "subscriptions" are just wonderfully profitable. I'm just not an optimist on this front.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
You don't have to gain anything- it's called not sacrificing your principles. Something many here don't understand. If we don't like something we don't have to put up with it but it might take some sacrifice.
- horsawlarway 3y ago
  > Something many here don't understand. This is a complete cop out, and a misunderstanding about how this works. This is a principle that works right up to "Can I feed my kids" and then it doesn't work at all. Principles are flexible. Some are more flexible than others. You NEED food in a way that you don't need general purpose computing. If you are forced to choose, I know which one people will pick. They will just put a finger on the scale to make it more and more difficult to choose an open solution. You will start losing things like income, job opportunities, government access, etc. They don't have to make you switch... they just have to make an environment where you are less fit. Make your life harder at every step, limit your opportunities, and wait for you to go extinct. And... you will.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    I'm complaining about the users around here who will not sacrifice the smallest convenience for their stated principles.

by jchw 3y ago

horsawlarway 3y ago

Yeah - No joke, I'm right there with you. I just don't think it will matter. There is too much money on the table, and too much pressure on the "security" front to get most of the people implementing this to just... stop. They have rational reasons for doing the things they're doing, and they're sitting in the "corporate developer" spot, which will still get the goodies like a real server that can run real code. I'd like to see some real government regulation... my basic stance is - if I own the device, I should get a key to EVERY fucking lock it has, including all the digital ones. Which seems very sane, and completely mirrors the same stance for ownership of things like houses and cars (the owner gets all the keys). But the government (at least in the US) has lodged the corporate phallus SO far down its fucking throat it's literally choking to death. So I don't expect any miracles.

cmurf 3y ago
But you don't really own the device. Since day 1 Apple has been opposed to this on all their hardware, but most especially iOS hardware. You have the right to use it as they provide, or destroy it. Ergo you own the physical device minus all firmware and software. You have no right to inspect, understand or modify the firmware or software in any way. By extension, there is no right to repair. This highly successful paradigm is now replicated by John Deere, and Tesla. WiFi radios are being locked down. I remember folks on HN warning of the slippery slope a decade ago, universally shot down. Security!
- horsawlarway 3y ago
  Sure, and this is why I utterly refuse to buy Apple hardware (note - I'm still forced to use Apple hardware by my place of employment... sort of making my point). It's also why I've chosen to do things like selfhost my own services, run my own computing hardware (literally sitting in my basement), contribute to and fund open source initiatives, and continue arguing that the government should regulate this behavior. Because frankly... I agree with you: it's a highly successful paradigm. If left alone and unregulated, companies that don't abuse their customers in this manner will become less and less prevalent. I call it "the little green man" paradigm: They have a literal enforcer sitting inside your phone who only answers to them. They use that little green man to extort rent from you for services and goods that shouldn't require any sort of ongoing or recurring expense, but will... because rents * * cough * * excuse me, "subscriptions" are just wonderfully profitable. I'm just not an optimist on this front.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

You don't have to gain anything- it's called not sacrificing your principles. Something many here don't understand. If we don't like something we don't have to put up with it but it might take some sacrifice.

horsawlarway 3y ago
> Something many here don't understand. This is a complete cop out, and a misunderstanding about how this works. This is a principle that works right up to "Can I feed my kids" and then it doesn't work at all. Principles are flexible. Some are more flexible than others. You NEED food in a way that you don't need general purpose computing. If you are forced to choose, I know which one people will pick. They will just put a finger on the scale to make it more and more difficult to choose an open solution. You will start losing things like income, job opportunities, government access, etc. They don't have to make you switch... they just have to make an environment where you are less fit. Make your life harder at every step, limit your opportunities, and wait for you to go extinct. And... you will.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  I'm complaining about the users around here who will not sacrifice the smallest convenience for their stated principles.