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If Nazis are actually in power or even causing a local disturbance, then battery and beyond can definitely be justified where appropriate. Non-violence is alwa

If Nazis are actually in power or even causing a local disturbance, then battery and beyond can definitely be justified where appropriate. Non-violence is always the place to start, but anti-fascists should not have their hands tied if more is necessary. The WWII resistance groups were more than justified.

intimidated 3y ago
This sounds strategically sound until the realization that you've given very compelling justification—legal or not, it doesn't really matter—for others to now commit preemptive violence against people like you.
- DelaneyM 3y ago
  No part of the post you’re replying to suggests it’s opening the door to reciprocal violence. The more complete argument is that extra-judicial action is justified when there is no other way - such as when the political process cannot effect change. If there are no just elections, the only way to remove a ruler is revolution, almost by definition. In that case, “punch the Nazis” all you like. No part of the post you’re replying to suggests they want to pursue or support tyranny. If some right-wing kooks justify revolution with demonstrably false statements, that does not justify their actions - falsehoods are never a foundation of justice.
PaulHoule 3y ago
So far as I can tell “anti-fascism” and “fascism” are like anti-matter and matter. Anti-fascists see fascism everywhere (your local police department) the same way the John Birch Society saw communism everywhere (Dwight Eisenhower.). Or maybe they are just jealous that the fascists have cool uniforms and boots. Or maybe they think their life isn’t meaningful enough and it has to be like a comic book or a WWII movie.
- text0404 3y ago
  maybe you've been watching too many movies or reading too many comics if you think that anti-fascists are only in the fight because they're jealous and have meaningless lives. perhaps anti-fascists see the fight for a just and equitable society to be more than that. the people i've worked with who organize for a better society don't tend to live lives like you see in a movie or comic. they're out there feeding the homeless, starting scholarship funds, and teaching people how to garden.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Look, people were organizing for equality and justice long before “anti-fascist” started glibly rolling off people’s lips ten years ago. You can work for all the positive things you say and more and not be accusing anyone who disagrees with you in any respect of being a “fascist”. It’s just toxic. (For the record, I’ve organized to get greens on the ballot, put Chomsky audio lectures on the internet before most people had ever heard of the internet, …) (BTW, I know people at a baptist church that many people would accuse of being “fascist” because of their religion who do all three of those things you say.)
    - jonhendry18 3y ago
      "I know people at a baptist church that many people would accuse of being “fascist” because of their religion who do all three of those things you say" The Nazis weren't totally against charitable works. They were against charitable works that benefitted "inferior" humans.
      - mbg721 3y ago
        Such as kids with genetic diseases? Doctors encourage eugenic abortions all the time.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  > Anti-fascists see fascism everywhere (your local police department) with things like civil asset forfeiture, qualified immunity, "thin blue line", use of decommissioned military equipment, "law and order" "america first" politics (I can go on)... it's not that big of a stretch to believe something like this despite not being entirely accurate... in many ways it quacks like a duck
  - laserdancepony 3y ago
    Things went really well in Portland without the police. No crime whatsoever.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago
      I'm not sure you meant to respond to me because this comment seems completely irrelevant. It doesn't negate (or even address) any of my points, and I didn't advocate for no police.
- jonhendry18 3y ago
  Maybe people wouldn't see facism in local police departments if there wasn't facism in the local police departments. "Police Chief Pat Flannelly said Officer Joseph Zacharek, hired in June, was called into the police station Friday night after claims started showing up on social media that he was linked to Iron March, a neo-Nazi forum disbanded in 2017 but that had its database exposed on the internet in late 2019." Yay that he was fired, but how many haven't?
screamingninja 3y ago
> battery and beyond can definitely be justified where appropriate How do you define "appropriate" and how do you possibly justify initiating violence? Tolerance is not the only other alternative. You can vehemently oppose extremist opinions through debate without resorting to physical assault.
- gcr 3y ago
  Yonatan Zunger writes about this! https://medium.com/extra-extra/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376 https://medium.com/extra-extra/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-prec...
wonderwonder 3y ago
When is more necessary? Who gets to decide? Pretty confident that's the job of law enforcement. Otherwise we have people getting assaulted and killed for thought crimes. Do you support people assaulting teachers advocating for transgenderism? Others see that as an assault on children and view themselves as defending kids. Is bombing abortion clinics ok? Is violence ok on both sides of the political spectrum or just one? I'm a Jew, I just laugh when I see a crowd of 10 inbred people waving Nazi flags on the side of the road. Violence against those committing violence against me and mine is always justified. Words though are not violence. Modern day America is not 1930s Germany. We have multiple law enforcement agencies and prosecutors eager to engage those actively planning physical attacks on minorities, we don't need vigilante thought police.
BeFlatXIII 3y ago
IMO, much skepticism of the "punch a Nazi" crowd stems from the fact that most of them (or at least the vocal one) seem to be more enthralled with the punching than the anti-fascism. This entire incident is what happens when "punch Nazis" collides with "everyone I dislike must be cryptofash."

intimidated 3y ago

This sounds strategically sound until the realization that you've given very compelling justification—legal or not, it doesn't really matter—for others to now commit preemptive violence against people like you.

DelaneyM 3y ago
No part of the post you’re replying to suggests it’s opening the door to reciprocal violence. The more complete argument is that extra-judicial action is justified when there is no other way - such as when the political process cannot effect change. If there are no just elections, the only way to remove a ruler is revolution, almost by definition. In that case, “punch the Nazis” all you like. No part of the post you’re replying to suggests they want to pursue or support tyranny. If some right-wing kooks justify revolution with demonstrably false statements, that does not justify their actions - falsehoods are never a foundation of justice.

PaulHoule 3y ago

So far as I can tell “anti-fascism” and “fascism” are like anti-matter and matter. Anti-fascists see fascism everywhere (your local police department) the same way the John Birch Society saw communism everywhere (Dwight Eisenhower.). Or maybe they are just jealous that the fascists have cool uniforms and boots. Or maybe they think their life isn’t meaningful enough and it has to be like a comic book or a WWII movie.

text0404 3y ago
maybe you've been watching too many movies or reading too many comics if you think that anti-fascists are only in the fight because they're jealous and have meaningless lives. perhaps anti-fascists see the fight for a just and equitable society to be more than that. the people i've worked with who organize for a better society don't tend to live lives like you see in a movie or comic. they're out there feeding the homeless, starting scholarship funds, and teaching people how to garden.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Look, people were organizing for equality and justice long before “anti-fascist” started glibly rolling off people’s lips ten years ago. You can work for all the positive things you say and more and not be accusing anyone who disagrees with you in any respect of being a “fascist”. It’s just toxic. (For the record, I’ve organized to get greens on the ballot, put Chomsky audio lectures on the internet before most people had ever heard of the internet, …) (BTW, I know people at a baptist church that many people would accuse of being “fascist” because of their religion who do all three of those things you say.)
  - jonhendry18 3y ago
    "I know people at a baptist church that many people would accuse of being “fascist” because of their religion who do all three of those things you say" The Nazis weren't totally against charitable works. They were against charitable works that benefitted "inferior" humans.
    - mbg721 3y ago
      Such as kids with genetic diseases? Doctors encourage eugenic abortions all the time.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
> Anti-fascists see fascism everywhere (your local police department) with things like civil asset forfeiture, qualified immunity, "thin blue line", use of decommissioned military equipment, "law and order" "america first" politics (I can go on)... it's not that big of a stretch to believe something like this despite not being entirely accurate... in many ways it quacks like a duck
- laserdancepony 3y ago
  Things went really well in Portland without the police. No crime whatsoever.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    I'm not sure you meant to respond to me because this comment seems completely irrelevant. It doesn't negate (or even address) any of my points, and I didn't advocate for no police.
jonhendry18 3y ago
Maybe people wouldn't see facism in local police departments if there wasn't facism in the local police departments. "Police Chief Pat Flannelly said Officer Joseph Zacharek, hired in June, was called into the police station Friday night after claims started showing up on social media that he was linked to Iron March, a neo-Nazi forum disbanded in 2017 but that had its database exposed on the internet in late 2019." Yay that he was fired, but how many haven't?

screamingninja 3y ago

> battery and beyond can definitely be justified where appropriate How do you define "appropriate" and how do you possibly justify initiating violence? Tolerance is not the only other alternative. You can vehemently oppose extremist opinions through debate without resorting to physical assault.

gcr 3y ago
Yonatan Zunger writes about this! https://medium.com/extra-extra/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376 https://medium.com/extra-extra/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-prec...

wonderwonder 3y ago

When is more necessary? Who gets to decide? Pretty confident that's the job of law enforcement. Otherwise we have people getting assaulted and killed for thought crimes. Do you support people assaulting teachers advocating for transgenderism? Others see that as an assault on children and view themselves as defending kids. Is bombing abortion clinics ok? Is violence ok on both sides of the political spectrum or just one? I'm a Jew, I just laugh when I see a crowd of 10 inbred people waving Nazi flags on the side of the road. Violence against those committing violence against me and mine is always justified. Words though are not violence. Modern day America is not 1930s Germany. We have multiple law enforcement agencies and prosecutors eager to engage those actively planning physical attacks on minorities, we don't need vigilante thought police.

BeFlatXIII 3y ago

IMO, much skepticism of the "punch a Nazi" crowd stems from the fact that most of them (or at least the vocal one) seem to be more enthralled with the punching than the anti-fascism. This entire incident is what happens when "punch Nazis" collides with "everyone I dislike must be cryptofash."