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>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets

>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it as more of an unnecessary fear/anxiety. People make do. People get knocked up, they get unemployed, they get help from friends and family where possible, and they love their kids just as much as the people who planned it on a Jira board.

xyzzy4747 3y ago
As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  Bad parenting or neglectful often produces bad outcomes does it not? This is unfortunate to read. Of course everything doesn’t need to be planned, but food and shelter are the bare minimum.
  - xyzzy4747 3y ago
    Bad outcome in what way? Even if you’re a so-called bad parent, they’ll still have a similar life expectancy, and a similar chance of creating grandchildren. Maybe they won’t be an A student when they reach school but does it actually matter? There’s kids who literally survived the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and lived very successful lives after. That said there is a natural instinct to be a decent parent. You don’t really have to try or be ready to. Just need to be around. In my opinion it’s similar to the instinct to turn off a burning stove - a bunch of common sense stuff that requires zero planning.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Success as a parent is much more than just "my child is alive and getting older" Are they becoming a happy person? good, moral person? Do they contribute to society or are they a drain on society? Do you, the parent, have to bail them out of jail every other weekend? Don't neglect your kids, people. Please.
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        A child's peer group has more influence over those questions than parents do. It's no excuse to neglect your children, but society places far more blame on parents than is warranted IMO.
        inerg 3y ago
        While the child's peer group does have the strong influence on a few of those questions, it's probably worth noting that as the parent you build the tools that allows the child to develop the peer group that allows for them to be happy. The unfortunate reality is that this groundwork is laid from around 0-10. After that it's a lot harder to correct the mistakes and the influence then definitely falls much more under peers than the parents.
        em-bee 3y ago
        exactly. i didn't have a peer group as a child. and my parents are the only ones responsible for that. i am not blaming them, because they couldn't do better, but most definitely their influence and making sure that i am in an environment where i can make friends is something they were responsible for.
  - polski-g 3y ago
    Not really. The most meaningful outcome for a child's life is the mate selection of the parents. Parenting generally has no effect; see the letter sent to Maher as a really good synopsis: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mom-and-tackling-the-parenting-myth/ https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mo...
    - inerg 3y ago
      I'm not disagreeing with what you've linked said but it's pretty well documented that there are negative events that can lead to long term impacts on children. The letter you linked seems to glance over parents who are abusive, whether that is verbal, physical, or neglectful. For those that want to dive in a little bit these are Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE). It's not an end all be all chance that you'll develop something with a long term impact but the more you experience the more likely you are to do so. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefactors.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefa...
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        You can do everything right and your kid will still have an ACE. Lil Timmy falls down a well, or has a really handsy neighbour, or has to see someone get hit by a car. Like, obviously, don't beat your kids, but you don't need to be superlative parent, esp. since a great deal of their education and raising will happen, essentially, in someone elses workplace (i.e. school).
    - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
      Surely for such a counterintuitive idea, we can do better for evidence than a rambling blog post about a letter to a TV show host. The evidence for such a strong claim should be pretty strong, and given the state of the replication crisis in the relevant fields, linking to a bunch of studies doesn't mean much anymore.
- birksherty 3y ago
  Completely disagree. You do whatever with your own life. But kid is a 3rd person that you bring. If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask.
  - mlinhares 3y ago
    It is insane to me that people think otherwise. How callous can you be to bring a life into the world and think "i'm just gonna wing it" in this day and age. The kid didn't ask to be brought here, it is 100% under the responsibility and care of whoever decided to have it.
    - rimunroe 3y ago
      I'm not saying people shouldn't wing it, but some people clearly think they (or other parents) can control more things than are practical or healthy. You should try to be a responsible parent, but knowing how much you need to worry about individual things isn't easy. It's not practical to do everything various people say you should do. One expert will advise the opposite of what another does, and over times people flip flop back and forth. In the end I don't see how it couldn't involve some level of winging things.
  - rimunroe 3y ago
    So to preface this, my spouse and I are trying for our first kid so I'm not a parent yet, but I've been reading a lot and talking to friends who are parents. > If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. > > Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask. Literally every aspect of raising a kid is a gamble, but there are degrees to these things. What counts as a "disadvantage" isn't always clear, let alone the degree to which it is actually harmful. Making a few mistakes or not doing things perfectly is probably fine. There is a huge problem with pregnancy and parenthood where controlled studies can't be done for ethical reasons, the number of confounding variables is about as extreme as it can get, and the outcomes you're measuring often aren't even well defined (what does it mean to have succeeded as a parent? What does it mean for someone to have a happy life?). It's important to try to make your kids have a happy life, but there's a lot of disagreement on how exactly to do that. One factor that seems to have a huge effect is having parents who express their love for their kids and spend time with them. It's important for parents to take care of themselves and their relationship with their partner. One part of that is not burning yourself out trying to hyper-optimize things.
WXLCKNO 3y ago
I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.
- bradlys 3y ago
  I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    // Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly. A guy with a job and a gym membership is more attractive than 90% of men by default. Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe?
    - antisthenes 3y ago
      > Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe? A gym only takes you so far. There are things out of one's control - height, hair pattern, face shape, etc. Although I do believe that you're right in the sense that not being overweight and having a stable job already places you in the top 10-15% of men. It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women (even though it's not often said out loud)
      - 3y ago

xyzzy4747 3y ago

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

alphabettsy 3y ago
Bad parenting or neglectful often produces bad outcomes does it not? This is unfortunate to read. Of course everything doesn’t need to be planned, but food and shelter are the bare minimum.
- xyzzy4747 3y ago
  Bad outcome in what way? Even if you’re a so-called bad parent, they’ll still have a similar life expectancy, and a similar chance of creating grandchildren. Maybe they won’t be an A student when they reach school but does it actually matter? There’s kids who literally survived the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and lived very successful lives after. That said there is a natural instinct to be a decent parent. You don’t really have to try or be ready to. Just need to be around. In my opinion it’s similar to the instinct to turn off a burning stove - a bunch of common sense stuff that requires zero planning.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Success as a parent is much more than just "my child is alive and getting older" Are they becoming a happy person? good, moral person? Do they contribute to society or are they a drain on society? Do you, the parent, have to bail them out of jail every other weekend? Don't neglect your kids, people. Please.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      A child's peer group has more influence over those questions than parents do. It's no excuse to neglect your children, but society places far more blame on parents than is warranted IMO.
      - inerg 3y ago
        While the child's peer group does have the strong influence on a few of those questions, it's probably worth noting that as the parent you build the tools that allows the child to develop the peer group that allows for them to be happy. The unfortunate reality is that this groundwork is laid from around 0-10. After that it's a lot harder to correct the mistakes and the influence then definitely falls much more under peers than the parents.
        em-bee 3y ago
        exactly. i didn't have a peer group as a child. and my parents are the only ones responsible for that. i am not blaming them, because they couldn't do better, but most definitely their influence and making sure that i am in an environment where i can make friends is something they were responsible for.
- polski-g 3y ago
  Not really. The most meaningful outcome for a child's life is the mate selection of the parents. Parenting generally has no effect; see the letter sent to Maher as a really good synopsis: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mom-and-tackling-the-parenting-myth/ https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mo...
  - inerg 3y ago
    I'm not disagreeing with what you've linked said but it's pretty well documented that there are negative events that can lead to long term impacts on children. The letter you linked seems to glance over parents who are abusive, whether that is verbal, physical, or neglectful. For those that want to dive in a little bit these are Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE). It's not an end all be all chance that you'll develop something with a long term impact but the more you experience the more likely you are to do so. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefactors.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefa...
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      You can do everything right and your kid will still have an ACE. Lil Timmy falls down a well, or has a really handsy neighbour, or has to see someone get hit by a car. Like, obviously, don't beat your kids, but you don't need to be superlative parent, esp. since a great deal of their education and raising will happen, essentially, in someone elses workplace (i.e. school).
  - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
    Surely for such a counterintuitive idea, we can do better for evidence than a rambling blog post about a letter to a TV show host. The evidence for such a strong claim should be pretty strong, and given the state of the replication crisis in the relevant fields, linking to a bunch of studies doesn't mean much anymore.
birksherty 3y ago
Completely disagree. You do whatever with your own life. But kid is a 3rd person that you bring. If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask.
- mlinhares 3y ago
  It is insane to me that people think otherwise. How callous can you be to bring a life into the world and think "i'm just gonna wing it" in this day and age. The kid didn't ask to be brought here, it is 100% under the responsibility and care of whoever decided to have it.
  - rimunroe 3y ago
    I'm not saying people shouldn't wing it, but some people clearly think they (or other parents) can control more things than are practical or healthy. You should try to be a responsible parent, but knowing how much you need to worry about individual things isn't easy. It's not practical to do everything various people say you should do. One expert will advise the opposite of what another does, and over times people flip flop back and forth. In the end I don't see how it couldn't involve some level of winging things.
- rimunroe 3y ago
  So to preface this, my spouse and I are trying for our first kid so I'm not a parent yet, but I've been reading a lot and talking to friends who are parents. > If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. > > Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask. Literally every aspect of raising a kid is a gamble, but there are degrees to these things. What counts as a "disadvantage" isn't always clear, let alone the degree to which it is actually harmful. Making a few mistakes or not doing things perfectly is probably fine. There is a huge problem with pregnancy and parenthood where controlled studies can't be done for ethical reasons, the number of confounding variables is about as extreme as it can get, and the outcomes you're measuring often aren't even well defined (what does it mean to have succeeded as a parent? What does it mean for someone to have a happy life?). It's important to try to make your kids have a happy life, but there's a lot of disagreement on how exactly to do that. One factor that seems to have a huge effect is having parents who express their love for their kids and spend time with them. It's important for parents to take care of themselves and their relationship with their partner. One part of that is not burning yourself out trying to hyper-optimize things.

WXLCKNO 3y ago

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

bradlys 3y ago
I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly. A guy with a job and a gym membership is more attractive than 90% of men by default. Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe?
  - antisthenes 3y ago
    > Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe? A gym only takes you so far. There are things out of one's control - height, hair pattern, face shape, etc. Although I do believe that you're right in the sense that not being overweight and having a stable job already places you in the top 10-15% of men. It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women (even though it's not often said out loud)
    - 3y ago