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I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with eas

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation that's probably better for you rather than delaying it until it's too late. Now that we have 'choice' things are more difficult because you need to actually commit to something life changing. For most people it's impossible to know the 'right time' to do that or for them to have the courage necessary to take the change.

ant_li0n 3y ago
Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really not that much work. It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story. It still hits me sometimes.
- mbg721 3y ago
  The thing that struck me about having kids is that no individual task is all that hard, but there are a lot of them and you have to be available at all times. It can wear you down like any other on-call situation.
- anon291 3y ago
  The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    On the contrary, "trying for kids" was accompanied by an elaborate ceremony to kick off the process. This big ceremony was often so successful that the kids would arrive 5 months after the ceremony!
    - em-bee 3y ago
      one person can have a child in 9 months. so two people must be able to have a child in half that time. the math checks out.
  - dagw 3y ago
    Trying for kids means making sure you have sex at the right times of the month, something humanity has known about for millennia. Equally people not 'trying for kids' made sure to only have sex at the 'wrong' time of the month, again something humans have been doing for millennia.
    - cafard 3y ago
      How many millennia? Mary Beard in SPQR writes that the Romans had the right time of the month as wrong as they could.
    - anon291 3y ago
      Up until very recently, there was very little knowledge that pregnancy lasted nine months... even among the 'learned'. Old pregnancy manuals talk about pregnancies taking anywhere from a few months to many many months. Without ultrasound and HcG tests, there is very little indication a woman is pregant until she starts showing or feeling the baby (and even then, a new mother may not even notice until she's showing anyway). As for fertility awareness, I don't believe the methods used prior to the modern day were super effective. Regardless, the knowledge was not present. So I'll restate my claim. Up until the modern day, there was no such thing as trying for children. There were married couples engaging in socially sanctioned sex, which obviously leads to children. Or there were fornicators that we knew could have children, but was socially unacceptable, and few fornicators actually wanted children from their unions.
- FeloniousHam 3y ago
  > It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story This! I was the first of our group to have kids, and I'd "the camera isn't on me anymore". I thought of Smallville where the Duke boy was just a background father-person.
- illiac786 3y ago
  Something that still hits me (hard) is how you suddenly have to be a model, or at least try. You can't take the easy road anymore, little eyes are watching your every move. I started thinking over my generous way of giving ethical and generally grandiloquent advice when I started being held up to it by ever watchful little eyes... I find this being the hardest, either way: admitting I'm not so great in some respects, or bettering myself. Both are incredibly hard.
beardedwizard 3y ago
My experience was that you will never feel "ready" to have kids, you just close your eyes and go for it. I think it is a good idea to look at finances and relationship health; but beyond that I'm not sure much else matters. It's almost the same as marriage - and your comment is insightful in that when given the choice humans will almost never choose to change, being "selfish" feels great while you are doing it.
- etrautmann 3y ago
  That’s exactly my experience (typing with an eight week old sleeping on my chest. I can’t imagine feeling 100% ready before, but the 9 months leading up to the delivery is time to mentally shift and prepare for the enormous change.
- bevesce- 3y ago
  I don't understand why selfishness comes in this context. I'm considering if and when have children because not doing it would be reckless and egoistical playing with somebody else's life
  - beardedwizard 3y ago
    Sure, it's ok to feel that way too.
em-bee 3y ago
i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  Looking back I don't think I would have been ready at twenty. Also I couldn't afford a house at the time but could at thirty.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    the expectation to need to be able to afford a house before you can have kids is something that is very wrong with society today. (but at the same time the difficulties today to afford a house is also something that has gone wrong. and i suppose the expectation to have a house made more sense when it was still possible to afford one. either way something here needs to change.)
    - mofosyne 3y ago
      Eh it's rational to expect stable housing before having kids. Even during medevial time, while you don't have much freedom, you have at least the certainty and stability of a place to live and a role to play. I don't think modern society does that anymore.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        well, over here, renting is considered stable housing because we have sufficient protection for renters. i keep forgetting that this is not the case everywhere.
- poisonborz 3y ago
  That's an opinion an algorithm could come up with based on raw data, but in real life you will not enjoy life the same way when you are 20, especially given at what life stage other 40s are at in most societies.

ant_li0n 3y ago

Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really not that much work. It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story. It still hits me sometimes.

mbg721 3y ago
The thing that struck me about having kids is that no individual task is all that hard, but there are a lot of them and you have to be available at all times. It can wear you down like any other on-call situation.
anon291 3y ago
The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  On the contrary, "trying for kids" was accompanied by an elaborate ceremony to kick off the process. This big ceremony was often so successful that the kids would arrive 5 months after the ceremony!
  - em-bee 3y ago
    one person can have a child in 9 months. so two people must be able to have a child in half that time. the math checks out.
- dagw 3y ago
  Trying for kids means making sure you have sex at the right times of the month, something humanity has known about for millennia. Equally people not 'trying for kids' made sure to only have sex at the 'wrong' time of the month, again something humans have been doing for millennia.
  - cafard 3y ago
    How many millennia? Mary Beard in SPQR writes that the Romans had the right time of the month as wrong as they could.
  - anon291 3y ago
    Up until very recently, there was very little knowledge that pregnancy lasted nine months... even among the 'learned'. Old pregnancy manuals talk about pregnancies taking anywhere from a few months to many many months. Without ultrasound and HcG tests, there is very little indication a woman is pregant until she starts showing or feeling the baby (and even then, a new mother may not even notice until she's showing anyway). As for fertility awareness, I don't believe the methods used prior to the modern day were super effective. Regardless, the knowledge was not present. So I'll restate my claim. Up until the modern day, there was no such thing as trying for children. There were married couples engaging in socially sanctioned sex, which obviously leads to children. Or there were fornicators that we knew could have children, but was socially unacceptable, and few fornicators actually wanted children from their unions.
FeloniousHam 3y ago
> It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story This! I was the first of our group to have kids, and I'd "the camera isn't on me anymore". I thought of Smallville where the Duke boy was just a background father-person.
illiac786 3y ago
Something that still hits me (hard) is how you suddenly have to be a model, or at least try. You can't take the easy road anymore, little eyes are watching your every move. I started thinking over my generous way of giving ethical and generally grandiloquent advice when I started being held up to it by ever watchful little eyes... I find this being the hardest, either way: admitting I'm not so great in some respects, or bettering myself. Both are incredibly hard.

beardedwizard 3y ago

My experience was that you will never feel "ready" to have kids, you just close your eyes and go for it. I think it is a good idea to look at finances and relationship health; but beyond that I'm not sure much else matters. It's almost the same as marriage - and your comment is insightful in that when given the choice humans will almost never choose to change, being "selfish" feels great while you are doing it.

etrautmann 3y ago
That’s exactly my experience (typing with an eight week old sleeping on my chest. I can’t imagine feeling 100% ready before, but the 9 months leading up to the delivery is time to mentally shift and prepare for the enormous change.
bevesce- 3y ago
I don't understand why selfishness comes in this context. I'm considering if and when have children because not doing it would be reckless and egoistical playing with somebody else's life
- beardedwizard 3y ago
  Sure, it's ok to feel that way too.

em-bee 3y ago

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

tonyedgecombe 3y ago
Looking back I don't think I would have been ready at twenty. Also I couldn't afford a house at the time but could at thirty.
- em-bee 3y ago
  the expectation to need to be able to afford a house before you can have kids is something that is very wrong with society today. (but at the same time the difficulties today to afford a house is also something that has gone wrong. and i suppose the expectation to have a house made more sense when it was still possible to afford one. either way something here needs to change.)
  - mofosyne 3y ago
    Eh it's rational to expect stable housing before having kids. Even during medevial time, while you don't have much freedom, you have at least the certainty and stability of a place to live and a role to play. I don't think modern society does that anymore.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      well, over here, renting is considered stable housing because we have sufficient protection for renters. i keep forgetting that this is not the case everywhere.
poisonborz 3y ago
That's an opinion an algorithm could come up with based on raw data, but in real life you will not enjoy life the same way when you are 20, especially given at what life stage other 40s are at in most societies.