6 ms·

> Where does it say that? Well, the Terms of Use[1] in force at the time make it pretty clear: > By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the

> Where does it say that? Well, the Terms of Use[1] in force at the time make it pretty clear: > By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. And later on, it suggests backers should expect rewards promised or their money back: > Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. Obviously you and I know better than to expect these to happen, but lets not pretend like everyone participating should have known they were bearing equity-like risk. [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

renewiltord 3y ago
Sure, but the same contract offers arbitrary delivery dates: > The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by. Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date The point of this site is to gather enough money to make a good faith attempt at something. That's pretty obvious. Even an LLM can figure that out.
- Guvante 3y ago
  Honestly to my understanding that is very common terms in contract law. Normally you have a right to a full refund if a date is specified and missed (specifically you can liquidate the contract for failure to fulfill which allows you to retrieve your consideration). But pretty much everybody ensures the contract avoids that by either specifying damages for a missed date (which avoids full liquidation) or specifies that no real date is for open ended projects. Note that with no end date you can still sue for failure to uphold if say updates stop.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, you can sue. But that will likely put the initiator in the poor house, whether you win or lose doesn't even matter. Is that what you had in mind as one of the possible outcomes when backed a project? If so: then don't back that project. People do Kickstarters without vetting as to their business acumen, skills, planning capabilities, ability to source components, product safety knowledge and so on. This dramatically changes the situation from ordering a good from a store or company and you should adjust your expectation as to delivery, quality of workmanship, product safety and guarantees accordingly. It is precisely why I've never done a Kickstarter even if there have been multiple occasions where people indicated they would love it if I did that. But I could see the potential trouble down the line with some clarity: I could easily put in a ton of effort, ultimately fail through some unknown factor and still be morally (and in some jurisdictions even legally) on the hook for either the delivery or a refund. This has such a chilling effect that it never even was a consideration to try. And that's precisely what Kickstarter is: to give people a chance to try to achieve their goal. Best effort, at best, and success as a lucky nice-to-have. And that's why I'm more than happy to back some projects that have low chance of success but where I hope that the initiator will either learn something or in an odd case that it will result in something tangible. I'm pleasantly surprised when it works and I don't sweat it when it doesn't. And I think that's the best match attitude wise for what Kickstarter offers, higher expectations than that and you will be disappointed.
jacquesm 3y ago
Implicit in the whole Kickstarter experience from day #1 is that projects may fail. The thing that I think Kickstarter could/should do is put this in large and prominent text on each and every project page rather than to bury it and to make it implicit. But since Kickstarter profits from the projects they do not do this, because if they would do it likely less projects would get funded. So they push the responsibility back for to the project creators rather than that they, as middle-men properly inform the counterparty. In that sense they are clearly and unambiguously on the side of the creators and not on the side of the backers. This is smart from their perspective in a monetary sense, but ethically it leaves something to be desired: they could easily do a better job here and they have more than enough data to support the thesis that Kickstarter projects can and do fail. Note that Kickstarter defines 'success' as 'got funded', not as 'delivered on the pledges'. As far as Kickstarter is concerned, when you're funded they're done. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delivery-rate-for-Kickstarter-projects-Approx-30-of-projects-are-delivered-without-or_fig4_366714553 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delivery-rate-for-Kickst... A good 40% of all Kickstarters does not deliver anything, ever. And the remaining 60% is split 50/50 between those that delivered on time and those that delivered at all. And that split can differ substantially between one kind of Kickstarter and another, hardware in particular is difficult and has a high failure rate, even for projects with massive backing. So, I'm not blaming the project initiators as much as I do Kickstarter, they clearly can do much better at informing potential backers of what they are getting into and the failure rate of projects (do deliver) within that particular segment, independent of the particular initiator (though their reputation could change that) should be prominently displayed on the pledge page. I won't hold my breath for that to happen though. Never trust a man etc...
- Guvante 3y ago
  "Not all projects fail" is not the same thing as "creators don't have to fulfill". Again this is why you run the Kickstarter through a bespoke LLC as that shields you from liability if you can't deliver. Having a bankrupt LLC makes you judgement proof and thus un-sueable unless they can pierce through the corporate veil because you committed fraud or something similarly terrible. Again it can both be true that they legally must deliver but there is nothing you can do if they don't.

renewiltord 3y ago

Sure, but the same contract offers arbitrary delivery dates: > The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by. Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date The point of this site is to gather enough money to make a good faith attempt at something. That's pretty obvious. Even an LLM can figure that out.

Guvante 3y ago
Honestly to my understanding that is very common terms in contract law. Normally you have a right to a full refund if a date is specified and missed (specifically you can liquidate the contract for failure to fulfill which allows you to retrieve your consideration). But pretty much everybody ensures the contract avoids that by either specifying damages for a missed date (which avoids full liquidation) or specifies that no real date is for open ended projects. Note that with no end date you can still sue for failure to uphold if say updates stop.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, you can sue. But that will likely put the initiator in the poor house, whether you win or lose doesn't even matter. Is that what you had in mind as one of the possible outcomes when backed a project? If so: then don't back that project. People do Kickstarters without vetting as to their business acumen, skills, planning capabilities, ability to source components, product safety knowledge and so on. This dramatically changes the situation from ordering a good from a store or company and you should adjust your expectation as to delivery, quality of workmanship, product safety and guarantees accordingly. It is precisely why I've never done a Kickstarter even if there have been multiple occasions where people indicated they would love it if I did that. But I could see the potential trouble down the line with some clarity: I could easily put in a ton of effort, ultimately fail through some unknown factor and still be morally (and in some jurisdictions even legally) on the hook for either the delivery or a refund. This has such a chilling effect that it never even was a consideration to try. And that's precisely what Kickstarter is: to give people a chance to try to achieve their goal. Best effort, at best, and success as a lucky nice-to-have. And that's why I'm more than happy to back some projects that have low chance of success but where I hope that the initiator will either learn something or in an odd case that it will result in something tangible. I'm pleasantly surprised when it works and I don't sweat it when it doesn't. And I think that's the best match attitude wise for what Kickstarter offers, higher expectations than that and you will be disappointed.

jacquesm 3y ago

Implicit in the whole Kickstarter experience from day #1 is that projects may fail. The thing that I think Kickstarter could/should do is put this in large and prominent text on each and every project page rather than to bury it and to make it implicit. But since Kickstarter profits from the projects they do not do this, because if they would do it likely less projects would get funded. So they push the responsibility back for to the project creators rather than that they, as middle-men properly inform the counterparty. In that sense they are clearly and unambiguously on the side of the creators and not on the side of the backers. This is smart from their perspective in a monetary sense, but ethically it leaves something to be desired: they could easily do a better job here and they have more than enough data to support the thesis that Kickstarter projects can and do fail. Note that Kickstarter defines 'success' as 'got funded', not as 'delivered on the pledges'. As far as Kickstarter is concerned, when you're funded they're done. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delivery-rate-for-Kickstarter-projects-Approx-30-of-projects-are-delivered-without-or_fig4_366714553 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delivery-rate-for-Kickst... A good 40% of all Kickstarters does not deliver anything, ever. And the remaining 60% is split 50/50 between those that delivered on time and those that delivered at all. And that split can differ substantially between one kind of Kickstarter and another, hardware in particular is difficult and has a high failure rate, even for projects with massive backing. So, I'm not blaming the project initiators as much as I do Kickstarter, they clearly can do much better at informing potential backers of what they are getting into and the failure rate of projects (do deliver) within that particular segment, independent of the particular initiator (though their reputation could change that) should be prominently displayed on the pledge page. I won't hold my breath for that to happen though. Never trust a man etc...

Guvante 3y ago
"Not all projects fail" is not the same thing as "creators don't have to fulfill". Again this is why you run the Kickstarter through a bespoke LLC as that shields you from liability if you can't deliver. Having a bankrupt LLC makes you judgement proof and thus un-sueable unless they can pierce through the corporate veil because you committed fraud or something similarly terrible. Again it can both be true that they legally must deliver but there is nothing you can do if they don't.