4 ms·

Bit of an irrelevant aside, but it's amazing(ly sad) how off the wall Thai romanization remains. In Thai the dish is of course unambiguously ผัดกะเพรา, where t

Bit of an irrelevant aside, but it's amazing(ly sad) how off the wall Thai romanization remains. In Thai the dish is of course unambiguously ผัดกะเพรา, where the "correct" RTGS romanization would be "phat kaphrao". Yet the Guardian randomly uses only the second half of this, subbing in "pad" for the first word even though ผ and พ are pronounced identically. Whereas you're at least consistent in using for lack of a better word "backpacker Thai", where ก/พ are g/p instead of k/ph and ด is written d even when it's pronounced t (as in ผัด). Anyway! If you need a decent {ph,p}a{t,d} {k,g}ap{h}rao and are not in Thailand, I can warmly recommend Greyhound Cafe, which has branches in Singapore, Hong Kong, Manila and London: https://www.greyhoundcafe.co.th/ https://www.greyhoundcafe.co.th/

biztos 3y ago
Also, the “r” in that position is silent colloquially, so enjoy your pad gapao!
- kanwisher 3y ago
  no there are multiple writing of Grapao in Thai, some have the extra R and some don't, it goes back a 100 years when the spelling wasn't commonized
  - biztos 3y ago
    I don’t mean the spelling, I mean that the “r” in that case is not spoken, presumably because saying it as “l” would be inconvenient. But really, are any of them “grapao” with the r on the first syllable? I always thought that was just a mistake we foreigners make because we don’t learn it as กะเพรา.
robga 3y ago
Greyhound London? This matched my experience - fusion confusion. https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/restaurants/greyhound-cafe-review-katie-glass-gets-lost-in-the-fusion-confusion-a3760366.html https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/restaurants/greyhound-ca...
- petesergeant 3y ago
  The Heron in London is very very good
- resolutebat 3y ago
  They have a large menu with lots of Western choices too (because that's hip for Thai people in Thailand), but I've never been disappointed with the pure Thai side of the menu. YMMV, and I haven't been to the London branch.
wingerlang 3y ago
> where ก/พ are g/p instead of k/ph I'll die on this hill but ก as g is clearly a more accurate than k. Like, you wouldn't pronounce ไก่ as "kai" (ไข่/ไหค่/etc) it's so much more clear to say "gai(lowtone)". Point being that even the official romanization sucks.
- jdtig 3y ago
  You think that /k/ sounds like /g/, because you speak a language (English) that doesn't distinguish them. However, I imagine that writing "k" for /k/ makes perfect sense to speakers of languages that have /g/, /k/, and /kh/. And your solution works for /k/ and /kh/, but runs into problems when you have a three-way contrast (/b/p/ph/ and /d/t/th). You can't write "buu" for "crab" just because you think it sounds like an English "b"; you need "b" for the actual /b/ sound.
  - wingerlang 3y ago
    I just think that ไก่ is miles closer to Gai than Kai, that's all. Another hill would be that ปู is best written as bpuu/bpoo. I don't really think it matters, no one is consistent, no transliteration covers all cases. Unless maybe ipa? (which no one uses to communicate anyway).
    - jdtig 3y ago
      I can agree that the Paiboon romanization (g/k, b/bp/b, d/dt/t) is probably the most intuitive for English-speakers. But it's silly to say that it's the best system just because it is easiest for people like yourself. I do think something IPA-inspired (k/kh, b/p/ph, d/t/th) is consistent and still usable. It will also encourage better pronunciation (at least for somewhat serious students) if they are trying to say the correct sound (unaspirated /k/) instead of approximating it with an English phoneme that isn't used in Thai (voiced /g/).
      - wingerlang 3y ago
        I didn't say it is the best system though, I said that I think some characters are more accurate than others. The implied context being, casually writing Thai in English, to other English speakers. But I do think that an intuitive system is better than an IPA inspired system, and that's purely because of the fact that only 1% of people will be using it and understanding it. The other 99% will be using other, random, variations. However an intuitive system will at least catch most people who speaks English. Any romanization that is more than "close enough" is a waste of time though, when compared to simply learning to write in Thai.
thaiman 3y ago
Actually it all have to do with aspiration, e.g a small puff of air coming out when saying the sound. Or in the case with ก , it is a k without any air coming out is probably the most accurate description but writing g is therefore closer then a real k that have aspiration. :) You can test this yourself with holding your hand in front of your mouth saying english k and then stop any air from coming out. There you have the correct sound for ก
- FabHK 3y ago
  Interesting. I don't know about Thai, but for Mandarin, the issue is similar - g/k, d/t, b/p in English all are (voiced and unaspirated) or (unvoiced and aspirated), while what's in Pinyin denoted g/k, d/t, b/p is (unvoiced and unaspirated) or (unvoiced and aspirated). In other words, if you put the 4 combinations in a square, in English (and German), 2 are used that are on a diagonal, while in Mandarin, 2 are used that are in the same row (or column, as the case may be). In Hindi apparently are 4 are used. ETA: Wikipedia says this: "Between pairs of stops or affricates having the same place of articulation and manner of articulation, the primary distinction is not voiced vs. voiceless (as in French or Russian), but unaspirated vs. aspirated (as in Scottish Gaelic or Icelandic)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Con...
FabHK 3y ago
Can second Greyhound. Hungry now...
SPBS 3y ago
I can see why they did it, 'phat kaphrao' might be mispronounced as 'fat kaphrao' ('phat' being the stylistic way of spelling fat on the internet).
- xnorswap 3y ago
  It's not an internet thing, "Ph" is pronounced like F almost everywhere in English, e.g. "Gopher" or "Phone". It makes little sense to transliterate a non "F" sound to Ph. ( And apparently this practice has roots from the even older transliteration of Phi )

biztos 3y ago

Also, the “r” in that position is silent colloquially, so enjoy your pad gapao!

kanwisher 3y ago
no there are multiple writing of Grapao in Thai, some have the extra R and some don't, it goes back a 100 years when the spelling wasn't commonized
- biztos 3y ago
  I don’t mean the spelling, I mean that the “r” in that case is not spoken, presumably because saying it as “l” would be inconvenient. But really, are any of them “grapao” with the r on the first syllable? I always thought that was just a mistake we foreigners make because we don’t learn it as กะเพรา.

robga 3y ago

Greyhound London? This matched my experience - fusion confusion. https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/restaurants/greyhound-cafe-review-katie-glass-gets-lost-in-the-fusion-confusion-a3760366.html https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/restaurants/greyhound-ca...

petesergeant 3y ago
The Heron in London is very very good
resolutebat 3y ago
They have a large menu with lots of Western choices too (because that's hip for Thai people in Thailand), but I've never been disappointed with the pure Thai side of the menu. YMMV, and I haven't been to the London branch.

wingerlang 3y ago

> where ก/พ are g/p instead of k/ph I'll die on this hill but ก as g is clearly a more accurate than k. Like, you wouldn't pronounce ไก่ as "kai" (ไข่/ไหค่/etc) it's so much more clear to say "gai(lowtone)". Point being that even the official romanization sucks.

jdtig 3y ago
You think that /k/ sounds like /g/, because you speak a language (English) that doesn't distinguish them. However, I imagine that writing "k" for /k/ makes perfect sense to speakers of languages that have /g/, /k/, and /kh/. And your solution works for /k/ and /kh/, but runs into problems when you have a three-way contrast (/b/p/ph/ and /d/t/th). You can't write "buu" for "crab" just because you think it sounds like an English "b"; you need "b" for the actual /b/ sound.
- wingerlang 3y ago
  I just think that ไก่ is miles closer to Gai than Kai, that's all. Another hill would be that ปู is best written as bpuu/bpoo. I don't really think it matters, no one is consistent, no transliteration covers all cases. Unless maybe ipa? (which no one uses to communicate anyway).
  - jdtig 3y ago
    I can agree that the Paiboon romanization (g/k, b/bp/b, d/dt/t) is probably the most intuitive for English-speakers. But it's silly to say that it's the best system just because it is easiest for people like yourself. I do think something IPA-inspired (k/kh, b/p/ph, d/t/th) is consistent and still usable. It will also encourage better pronunciation (at least for somewhat serious students) if they are trying to say the correct sound (unaspirated /k/) instead of approximating it with an English phoneme that isn't used in Thai (voiced /g/).
    - wingerlang 3y ago
      I didn't say it is the best system though, I said that I think some characters are more accurate than others. The implied context being, casually writing Thai in English, to other English speakers. But I do think that an intuitive system is better than an IPA inspired system, and that's purely because of the fact that only 1% of people will be using it and understanding it. The other 99% will be using other, random, variations. However an intuitive system will at least catch most people who speaks English. Any romanization that is more than "close enough" is a waste of time though, when compared to simply learning to write in Thai.

thaiman 3y ago

Actually it all have to do with aspiration, e.g a small puff of air coming out when saying the sound. Or in the case with ก , it is a k without any air coming out is probably the most accurate description but writing g is therefore closer then a real k that have aspiration. :) You can test this yourself with holding your hand in front of your mouth saying english k and then stop any air from coming out. There you have the correct sound for ก

FabHK 3y ago
Interesting. I don't know about Thai, but for Mandarin, the issue is similar - g/k, d/t, b/p in English all are (voiced and unaspirated) or (unvoiced and aspirated), while what's in Pinyin denoted g/k, d/t, b/p is (unvoiced and unaspirated) or (unvoiced and aspirated). In other words, if you put the 4 combinations in a square, in English (and German), 2 are used that are on a diagonal, while in Mandarin, 2 are used that are in the same row (or column, as the case may be). In Hindi apparently are 4 are used. ETA: Wikipedia says this: "Between pairs of stops or affricates having the same place of articulation and manner of articulation, the primary distinction is not voiced vs. voiceless (as in French or Russian), but unaspirated vs. aspirated (as in Scottish Gaelic or Icelandic)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Con...

FabHK 3y ago

Can second Greyhound. Hungry now...

SPBS 3y ago

I can see why they did it, 'phat kaphrao' might be mispronounced as 'fat kaphrao' ('phat' being the stylistic way of spelling fat on the internet).

xnorswap 3y ago
It's not an internet thing, "Ph" is pronounced like F almost everywhere in English, e.g. "Gopher" or "Phone". It makes little sense to transliterate a non "F" sound to Ph. ( And apparently this practice has roots from the even older transliteration of Phi )