4 ms·

We Europeans need to wake up. Big tech companies in the US (and soon China) are practically robbing us at this point. The neoliberal dogma that tariffs and tra

by 0xDEF 3y ago

We Europeans need to wake up. Big tech companies in the US (and soon China) are practically robbing us at this point. The neoliberal dogma that tariffs and trade barriers are bad is economical suicide for Europe.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
throwaway-blaze 3y ago
What Europe needs is a reform of whatever it is that is stopping European startups from competing. It took Apple 40+ years to get where they are; they're _were_ European companies competing with them.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  This assumes a level playing field. Yet Apple was born into a largely monolingual market, with one currency, almost no regulation (for better and worse), a mostly continuous land mass with porous borders (among the states), and grew in a young field with mostly small competitors (IBM and Microsoft being exceptions). And Apple still nearly went bankrupt. With iPhone and Mac they control critical choke points in a crowded market, where all the choke points are now taken by large and powerful incumbents. Europe cannot deregulate it's way into success. In fact I'd say asleep-at-the wheel regulators and anti-trust are what got us into the mess of few real choices and luxury taxes for mediocre offerings.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    With more regulation we'd simply have much worse devices. Apple was born in a country with a lot of free-flowing capital available and incentives to succeed, and they've navigated it extremely well. Of course with big ideas comes the strong chance of failure, but that's why you need to be wary about overtaxing success. If you don't let people succeed when they make something really good, nothing good will get made.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      Perhaps worse devices is a reasonable tradeoff to allow home grown products to succeed.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        They could of course ban iPhones in favour of the employees of companies that make worse products. The only people that lose out are the consumers.
      - fakedang 3y ago
        Honestly that does not work in building quality. India, Russia and Brazil have already tried that.
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Was it absence of regulation or capital or some combination?
scarface_74 3y ago
Have you ever thought that it might be because of the regulatory environment in Europe that the tech system is so enemic?
- oblio 3y ago
  People keep saying that, but how exactly is the regulatory environment affecting tech in Europe?
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    It’s harder to ramp up employment and ramp down employment in the EU for one. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/why-google-and-amazon-are-struggling-to-lay-off-workers-in-europe-3926352 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/why-google-and-amazon-are-st... That’s suppose to be for “worker protection”. But the average senior enterprise CRUD developer[1], in the US makes more than many BigTech workers in the EU. I’ll take the tradeoff of more money over being laid off any day. VC funding has also traditionally been lower because of regulations https://www.maxio.com/blog/state-of-vc-funding-in-europe https://www.maxio.com/blog/state-of-vc-funding-in-europe [1] no offense intended. That’s what I was for decades and I still turn back into a an enterprise dev pumpkin if you take AWS away from me.
    - oblio 3y ago
      I don't think Ericsson, Alcatel, Siemens, Nokia, etc failed due to EU regulations, though. And regarding those protections, they're there for a reason and in terms of hardware it truly is a race to the bottom, hardware is only made in low cost of living places because workers can be abused at will. For software I'd argue that it was the unified market in the US (and now China) that's the real deal breaker. Plus VC capital, but I think that's changing.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        I realize that they’re for a reason. But if I know it’s harder to lay someone off of the business climate changes, I’m going to be a lot less likely to hire a lot of people. I would much rather get an offer for $250K a year, get laid off in two years than not be able to get a job or even get a job for $100K a year and have job security.
seydor 3y ago
we need to hire a new committee to oversee the committee that currently oversees trade
astrange 3y ago
Tariffs and trade barriers are bad; Brazil has not developed a competitor to iPhones even though it has a huge tariff on them. It's not how successful tech economies like Korea developed either. They used industrial policy and export discipline. Europe can't develop more tech companies because it doesn't have enough financing options and because you're passing 100000 cookie popup laws.
- hardware2win 3y ago
  Right, blame EU for companies doing shady stuff with our data.
  - astrange 3y ago
    It doesn't matter what the data is - your data is not very profitable and it's not why any particular company is in business. It does depend what the cost of compliance with all of that is.
    - hardware2win 3y ago
      What do you mean, my data is valuable

by 0xDEF 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

throwaway-blaze 3y ago

What Europe needs is a reform of whatever it is that is stopping European startups from competing. It took Apple 40+ years to get where they are; they're _were_ European companies competing with them.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
This assumes a level playing field. Yet Apple was born into a largely monolingual market, with one currency, almost no regulation (for better and worse), a mostly continuous land mass with porous borders (among the states), and grew in a young field with mostly small competitors (IBM and Microsoft being exceptions). And Apple still nearly went bankrupt. With iPhone and Mac they control critical choke points in a crowded market, where all the choke points are now taken by large and powerful incumbents. Europe cannot deregulate it's way into success. In fact I'd say asleep-at-the wheel regulators and anti-trust are what got us into the mess of few real choices and luxury taxes for mediocre offerings.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  With more regulation we'd simply have much worse devices. Apple was born in a country with a lot of free-flowing capital available and incentives to succeed, and they've navigated it extremely well. Of course with big ideas comes the strong chance of failure, but that's why you need to be wary about overtaxing success. If you don't let people succeed when they make something really good, nothing good will get made.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    Perhaps worse devices is a reasonable tradeoff to allow home grown products to succeed.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      They could of course ban iPhones in favour of the employees of companies that make worse products. The only people that lose out are the consumers.
    - fakedang 3y ago
      Honestly that does not work in building quality. India, Russia and Brazil have already tried that.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Was it absence of regulation or capital or some combination?

scarface_74 3y ago

Have you ever thought that it might be because of the regulatory environment in Europe that the tech system is so enemic?

oblio 3y ago
People keep saying that, but how exactly is the regulatory environment affecting tech in Europe?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  It’s harder to ramp up employment and ramp down employment in the EU for one. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/why-google-and-amazon-are-struggling-to-lay-off-workers-in-europe-3926352 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/why-google-and-amazon-are-st... That’s suppose to be for “worker protection”. But the average senior enterprise CRUD developer[1], in the US makes more than many BigTech workers in the EU. I’ll take the tradeoff of more money over being laid off any day. VC funding has also traditionally been lower because of regulations https://www.maxio.com/blog/state-of-vc-funding-in-europe https://www.maxio.com/blog/state-of-vc-funding-in-europe [1] no offense intended. That’s what I was for decades and I still turn back into a an enterprise dev pumpkin if you take AWS away from me.
  - oblio 3y ago
    I don't think Ericsson, Alcatel, Siemens, Nokia, etc failed due to EU regulations, though. And regarding those protections, they're there for a reason and in terms of hardware it truly is a race to the bottom, hardware is only made in low cost of living places because workers can be abused at will. For software I'd argue that it was the unified market in the US (and now China) that's the real deal breaker. Plus VC capital, but I think that's changing.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      I realize that they’re for a reason. But if I know it’s harder to lay someone off of the business climate changes, I’m going to be a lot less likely to hire a lot of people. I would much rather get an offer for $250K a year, get laid off in two years than not be able to get a job or even get a job for $100K a year and have job security.

seydor 3y ago

we need to hire a new committee to oversee the committee that currently oversees trade

astrange 3y ago

Tariffs and trade barriers are bad; Brazil has not developed a competitor to iPhones even though it has a huge tariff on them. It's not how successful tech economies like Korea developed either. They used industrial policy and export discipline. Europe can't develop more tech companies because it doesn't have enough financing options and because you're passing 100000 cookie popup laws.

hardware2win 3y ago
Right, blame EU for companies doing shady stuff with our data.
- astrange 3y ago
  It doesn't matter what the data is - your data is not very profitable and it's not why any particular company is in business. It does depend what the cost of compliance with all of that is.
  - hardware2win 3y ago
    What do you mean, my data is valuable