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I might be spoiling my hand but I get concerned whenever I see any startup saying they are looking for employees to act like owners / put in a lot effort / "we

I might be spoiling my hand but I get concerned whenever I see any startup saying they are looking for employees to act like owners / put in a lot effort / "we aren't your average place!" It just seems like it will be amateur hour: immature founders who are in love with startup culture combined with junior and/or desperate employees who don't know better. I don't mind working hard, crunch, or even acting like an owner but when the these listings also have average salary ($135k - $190k [0]) with no mention of equity (meaning it's either 0.00% or not substantial), that's not ownership; that's a bad deal. If you want me to act like an owner, I expect to be treated and compensated like an owner or at least more than a "cog role" at another startup would be. Any founder who does the math on what it would take to hire a senior+ employee to behave like an owner (a very large chunk of your employee pool) will realize it's not feasible to hire like that. [0]: https://wellfound.com/jobs/2524214-systems-software-engineer https://wellfound.com/jobs/2524214-systems-software-engineer

almost_usual 3y ago
There’s a good chance the equity is also worthless. Easier to buy a lottery ticket.
version_five 3y ago
It's a big red flag. I saw this in a job posting recently: No mercenaries! We want people who have been waiting their whole lives to work on something like this. They don't explain what a mercenary is but from the context it seems they mean people who want to exchange their work for money. It's obviously important for people to enjoy their jobs and be engaged, but anything that reads to me like they want to skimp out on proper pay and working conditions because of how passionate the employees are just smacks of immaturity.
- unforeseen9991 3y ago
  That's one where they want you to be "family" I'm a merc at heart. Fuck you, pay me.
  - version_five 3y ago
    I think most mature businesses owners would want a mercenary as opposed to a fanatic. If you're doing it for the money, you'll work as part of the team to execute the leader's vision. If somehow you feel you were made to do this, presumably you also come with a bunch of baggage about how you think the product should be, etc etc which maybe is helpful as a co-founder but could be a hassle as a junior dev. Personally I've had great luck with mercenaries.
    - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
      I’ve been on both sides of that table in my career. As a business owner today, I definitely want a mercenary. A well prepared and thorough mercenary. The only business I’m willing to be an “owner” of these days is my own. I’ve worked for my dream employer and “took ownership” and learned a few good lessons about how when you don’t own your dream job, it can (but won’t always) become a nightmare.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  Ah yes, I've been waiting 20+ years of my life to work on a 1-year old startup's idea. The lack of awareness is stunning.
eek2121 3y ago
Agreed. Also, I make a great salary (> $190k) and I work 4 days a week, 5-6 hours a day (or less) most of the time (my work is 100% task based and not hours based). Why would I slave over a company when I can get paid just as much, if not more doing what I love while having tons of free time doing other things I love?
- sshine 3y ago
  Well, you wouldn’t. I earn <$110k with relaxed and flexible working conditions (but still 37 hours a week). I worked for $170k, had to travel, worked 50+ hours, and “felt ownership” without having any. I understand if their comp range corresponds to an extra day’s worth of salary to some. I just couldn’t get $170k without either doing something smarter or harder. The extra money wasn’t worth never being home or present.
  - flashgordon 3y ago
    Big disclaimer - this is a moot point outside bay area. If you are willing to do a startup for 170k because it is lot more than 110k, why wouldn't you leetcode your way into a fang say as an L5 (adjust level to YoE) making atleast 350-400k?
thiht 3y ago
> average salary ($135k - $190k Wtf? Are salaries THAT high in the US?
- madamelic 3y ago
  For software engineers, yeah. I should've been more specific with regards to it being average salary for an engineer. It's not at all a bad salary, it's actually a great salary but because of how many places do pay this well, places shouldn't have sky-high expectations of working six day weeks or constant crunch.
- majewsky 3y ago
  Yes, but you need to consider purchasing power parity and cost of living, as well as out-of-pocket expenses which in other countries might be included in taxes or paid by the employer.
- almost_usual 3y ago
  In SF 105k is poverty line. https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/under-100k-low-income-san-francisco-18168899.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/under-100k-low-income-s...
- cj 3y ago
  The higher the pay, the higher the competition. Those $150k+ jobs are extremely competitive if they're remote. Senior only. No junior or mid-level. The average developer looking for a remote job can probably expect closer to $110-140k as an individual contributor in a fully remote job outside of major cities. I'd say this is the majority of the volume of job openings. Of course there's a minority that pay way more, but as mentioned, competition for those positions is extremely high. The only reason to pay $150k+ is if a company is looking to hire people extremely quickly and the company wants to pay at a level that makes it very hard for employees to jump to another job to earn more. Source: My company hires engineers in the $120-140k range. We often talk to candidates who at first say they want $175k. We tell them we respect that, and to come back to us if anything changes. More often than not, they come back 1-2 months later asking for the job and happily accepting $120-140k. In the current market you really have to be pretty amazing in order to command $150k+ for remote jobs. For in-person jobs in SF or NYC, getting those salaries will be easier but you'll be paying extremely high COL.

almost_usual 3y ago

There’s a good chance the equity is also worthless. Easier to buy a lottery ticket.

version_five 3y ago

It's a big red flag. I saw this in a job posting recently: No mercenaries! We want people who have been waiting their whole lives to work on something like this. They don't explain what a mercenary is but from the context it seems they mean people who want to exchange their work for money. It's obviously important for people to enjoy their jobs and be engaged, but anything that reads to me like they want to skimp out on proper pay and working conditions because of how passionate the employees are just smacks of immaturity.

unforeseen9991 3y ago
That's one where they want you to be "family" I'm a merc at heart. Fuck you, pay me.
- version_five 3y ago
  I think most mature businesses owners would want a mercenary as opposed to a fanatic. If you're doing it for the money, you'll work as part of the team to execute the leader's vision. If somehow you feel you were made to do this, presumably you also come with a bunch of baggage about how you think the product should be, etc etc which maybe is helpful as a co-founder but could be a hassle as a junior dev. Personally I've had great luck with mercenaries.
  - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
    I’ve been on both sides of that table in my career. As a business owner today, I definitely want a mercenary. A well prepared and thorough mercenary. The only business I’m willing to be an “owner” of these days is my own. I’ve worked for my dream employer and “took ownership” and learned a few good lessons about how when you don’t own your dream job, it can (but won’t always) become a nightmare.
antisthenes 3y ago
Ah yes, I've been waiting 20+ years of my life to work on a 1-year old startup's idea. The lack of awareness is stunning.

eek2121 3y ago

Agreed. Also, I make a great salary (> $190k) and I work 4 days a week, 5-6 hours a day (or less) most of the time (my work is 100% task based and not hours based). Why would I slave over a company when I can get paid just as much, if not more doing what I love while having tons of free time doing other things I love?

sshine 3y ago
Well, you wouldn’t. I earn <$110k with relaxed and flexible working conditions (but still 37 hours a week). I worked for $170k, had to travel, worked 50+ hours, and “felt ownership” without having any. I understand if their comp range corresponds to an extra day’s worth of salary to some. I just couldn’t get $170k without either doing something smarter or harder. The extra money wasn’t worth never being home or present.
- flashgordon 3y ago
  Big disclaimer - this is a moot point outside bay area. If you are willing to do a startup for 170k because it is lot more than 110k, why wouldn't you leetcode your way into a fang say as an L5 (adjust level to YoE) making atleast 350-400k?

thiht 3y ago

> average salary ($135k - $190k Wtf? Are salaries THAT high in the US?

madamelic 3y ago
For software engineers, yeah. I should've been more specific with regards to it being average salary for an engineer. It's not at all a bad salary, it's actually a great salary but because of how many places do pay this well, places shouldn't have sky-high expectations of working six day weeks or constant crunch.
majewsky 3y ago
Yes, but you need to consider purchasing power parity and cost of living, as well as out-of-pocket expenses which in other countries might be included in taxes or paid by the employer.
almost_usual 3y ago
In SF 105k is poverty line. https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/under-100k-low-income-san-francisco-18168899.php https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/under-100k-low-income-s...
cj 3y ago
The higher the pay, the higher the competition. Those $150k+ jobs are extremely competitive if they're remote. Senior only. No junior or mid-level. The average developer looking for a remote job can probably expect closer to $110-140k as an individual contributor in a fully remote job outside of major cities. I'd say this is the majority of the volume of job openings. Of course there's a minority that pay way more, but as mentioned, competition for those positions is extremely high. The only reason to pay $150k+ is if a company is looking to hire people extremely quickly and the company wants to pay at a level that makes it very hard for employees to jump to another job to earn more. Source: My company hires engineers in the $120-140k range. We often talk to candidates who at first say they want $175k. We tell them we respect that, and to come back to us if anything changes. More often than not, they come back 1-2 months later asking for the job and happily accepting $120-140k. In the current market you really have to be pretty amazing in order to command $150k+ for remote jobs. For in-person jobs in SF or NYC, getting those salaries will be easier but you'll be paying extremely high COL.