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I think your examples are spurious and wrong, when compared with the specific kind of DSL the article talks about. SQL is a "Fourth Generation Language", much l

I think your examples are spurious and wrong, when compared with the specific kind of DSL the article talks about. SQL is a "Fourth Generation Language", much like Prolog, which is quite different to what is being discussed. HTML isn't a DSL; it's a type of SGML, a specific document markup language - you can't just shout "DSL" and squint a bunch and assume "All sort-of-languages are DSLs". Regular expressions, sure, but that's not relevant here because it's so universal - and mathematically backed (ever done a CS degree?) - that it's embedded inside every language now - i.e. this representation is a somewhat fundamental and mathematically general representation of interacting with strings - the DLSs in question here are, quite obviously, nothing of the sort. The article is right. DSLs are, universally, awful, as they grow and grow until they encompass all features of a general programming language - but because of their evolution path the're awkward and twisted and lack basic features of a general programming language (and definitely lack all the tooling you get). Witness what happened with XML as a configuration language. What started off as another leaf node under SGML ended up - by way of the Java ecosystem - growing if statements and loops and all the rest, only in a horrendous, hard-to-read and harder-to-debug monstrous language. So he's right. We should use real languages. And we should probably all just use Pulmi.

lisper 3y ago
Untyped lambda calculus FTW!
- dunk010 3y ago
  It is. But nobody listens. Ever.
kbenson 3y ago
I think the problem here is more that people still need to work on their positions to figure out what they really mean, because while you have some points, regular expressions are the canonical example of a DSL. Their domain is strings, and they make certain things you want to do in them very easy to express. The problem here is that while you can say “Terraform is more than a DSL” - if you ever back the layers or try have a conversation with someone who’s a true dyed in the wool Terraform zealot and start to try and understand where they’re coming from, you begin to realise they don’t love Terraform, they love this weird half language because they’re an expert in it, and they’ve built their entire career on being an expert on something you can only use for one specific use case. That's from the article, and that really sounds a lot like talking to someone that knows and loved regular expressions (and I count myself as one of those people). The alternative, which is often done in lower level languages, is either some simple nested conditionals or a state machine, and plenty of people choose to just write state machines. I mean, that's all a regular expression is anyway, a shorthand expression for building state machines to process strings. It should be no surprise that there are plenty of people that think regular expressions are wasteful and you should just write your own state machine (fewer than there were in the past, but they exist). Regular expressions are exactly like everything else that's being discusses in the article, but many people like them. Perhaps that's a point we should focus on to determine what makes a DSL successful and good compared to the alternative.
- morby 3y ago
  Aren’t regular expressions the abstraction to state machines? They all get converted to a DFA or NFA, no?
  - dunk010 3y ago
    Exactly. The languages in the article are nothing of the sort.
  - kbenson 3y ago
    Yes, and I said as much. All DSLs are abstractions to some sort of code that does some action. What I'm saying is that we have examples of bad DSLs, and good DSLs, and perhaps by focusing between them we can come up with some useful information about what distinguishes one from the other. To me, that's a much more interesting (and useful!) discussion than just piling onto the DSLs are awful bandwagon, and I also think it's a flaw in any argument put forth in that argument that needs to be addresses before I can accept it.
- dunk010 3y ago
  If you re-read my reply, you'll see that I said that regex is a DSL, but doesn't apply for different reasons.
  - kbenson 3y ago
    I did read your reply, and I think your reasons for excluding it are insufficient. You can't just exclude any DSL that succeeds (has become "universal") and say "see? no DSLs are good!" The point of me noting how people resisted (and still resist) regular expression usage is to note that just like any other DSL there are those that dislike it and eschew its use and instead just write the code. It is exactly what the article is talking about, where it advocates writing in the base language and not using a DSL. If you're going to make a serious argument that "DSLs are, universally, awful" then you're going to need to account for regular expressions a bit more carefully. That can be you admitting that you just dislike them and don't use them so consider them awful as well, but if you don't hate them then you may want to focus on the why, and it is likely a much more interesting conversation topic to pursue than "DSLs bad".
morby 3y ago
I would be comfortable calling HTML and SQL both DSLs. Given the scope of their use.
fyrn_ 3y ago
The random "ever done a CS degree?" is weird, and the premise that regular expressions are fundamental and mathematically general and therefore not a DSL is flawed: ebnf is also like that, and even more general. It _can_ parse HTML. Doesn't stop it from being an arbitrary representation of abstract syntax patterns. It's a DSL through and though and so is Regex. Actually pretty hard to find that pure of a DSL, which such a defined domain, as many DSLs evolve to be more general language like over time as the article says.
- dunk010 3y ago
  Well, I remember them teaching that stuff, and regex is quite clearly a very different sort of DSL than the ones being discussed. That combined with the comment author's seeming lack of nuance made me wonder if they'd ever looked deeper than "all things without a for loop are a DSL". I think we are getting too far into the semantics here though, at risk of splitting hairs and geting lost in the details. The core point is that the article is talking about some quite specific types of DSLs, so you can't say respond with "No, DSLs are useful" and then list off a bunch of unrelated stuff as a rebuttal.
  - eduction 3y ago
    I was replying to a very unuanced article, with the headline “DSLs are a waste of time” and no further hedging on that headline in the text. So ya, I knocked down the argument on the argument’s own (very broad) terms. No need for the personal swipe. > The core point is that the article is talking about some quite specific types of DSLs It used specific types of DSLs as evidence but I don’t see a narrowing of the claim itself? Where are you getting that?
    - dunk010 3y ago
      > No need for the personal swipe Fair enough It used specific types of DSLs as evidence but I don’t see a narrowing of the claim itself? Where are you getting that? What makes me sad, as I posted in a top-level comment, is that I read this exact same rationale 20 years go, by Steve Yegge, and yet we are still having the same stupid debate in programming about whether we should use DSLs and then the DSL grows and grows and, lo and behold, it's Turing-complete, but its ergonomics are dire and its tooling non-existant. And it's not like this is some niche part of the ecosystem - it's how most people deploy infrastructure. What I despise is seeing the same problems come up again and again, and never seeing good solutions to them, jsut the same mistakes, repeated. Programming is, truly, terrible. Just a load of slaves building the Pyramids.
eduction 3y ago
I don’t think it makes any sense to dismiss regex “because it’s so universal” — you’re disqualifying a DSL because it’s successful, then saying all DSLs are unsuccessful. It’s just a tautology at that point, same as the article. (And SQL is not a dsl because it’s a … programming language? But also HTML is not a domain specific language precisely because it’s not a programming language? I don’t follow your logic at all. I don’t think either are programming languages, but both are languages in another sense of the word, as evidenced by their full names, and certainly dsls.)
klyrs 3y ago
> DSLs are, universally, awful, as they grow and grow until they encompass all features of a general programming language This is the Slippery Slope Fallacy writ plain. A great many DSLs are stable over years or decades. By your reasoning, a stable DSL is bad because it's going to grow. Why is it going to grow? crickets Peeling away the fallacy, we could perhaps agree that "the uncontrolled growth of a DSL is an evil best avoided." Or if I'm being less generous, we could look at the bottom of that slippery slope and conclude "general programming languages are bad," because that's what the author seems most incensed by.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  General programming languages were meant from the start to be something like what they are today. They're intended to manage complexity, not pretend nobody will ever want to do complex things. They are also not application specific. Language design is hard. DSLs are made up by people who's main project isn't the language. Sometimes the motive for a DSL is something like "I don't like how this takes 5 lines of code in JS, if I made my own language it would only take 3"
eternityforest 3y ago
Seems like the bad DSLs happen when one attempts to express a subset of general purpose imperative computation in an application specific way.

lisper 3y ago

Untyped lambda calculus FTW!

dunk010 3y ago
It is. But nobody listens. Ever.

kbenson 3y ago

I think the problem here is more that people still need to work on their positions to figure out what they really mean, because while you have some points, regular expressions are the canonical example of a DSL. Their domain is strings, and they make certain things you want to do in them very easy to express. The problem here is that while you can say “Terraform is more than a DSL” - if you ever back the layers or try have a conversation with someone who’s a true dyed in the wool Terraform zealot and start to try and understand where they’re coming from, you begin to realise they don’t love Terraform, they love this weird half language because they’re an expert in it, and they’ve built their entire career on being an expert on something you can only use for one specific use case. That's from the article, and that really sounds a lot like talking to someone that knows and loved regular expressions (and I count myself as one of those people). The alternative, which is often done in lower level languages, is either some simple nested conditionals or a state machine, and plenty of people choose to just write state machines. I mean, that's all a regular expression is anyway, a shorthand expression for building state machines to process strings. It should be no surprise that there are plenty of people that think regular expressions are wasteful and you should just write your own state machine (fewer than there were in the past, but they exist). Regular expressions are exactly like everything else that's being discusses in the article, but many people like them. Perhaps that's a point we should focus on to determine what makes a DSL successful and good compared to the alternative.

morby 3y ago
Aren’t regular expressions the abstraction to state machines? They all get converted to a DFA or NFA, no?
- dunk010 3y ago
  Exactly. The languages in the article are nothing of the sort.
- kbenson 3y ago
  Yes, and I said as much. All DSLs are abstractions to some sort of code that does some action. What I'm saying is that we have examples of bad DSLs, and good DSLs, and perhaps by focusing between them we can come up with some useful information about what distinguishes one from the other. To me, that's a much more interesting (and useful!) discussion than just piling onto the DSLs are awful bandwagon, and I also think it's a flaw in any argument put forth in that argument that needs to be addresses before I can accept it.
dunk010 3y ago
If you re-read my reply, you'll see that I said that regex is a DSL, but doesn't apply for different reasons.
- kbenson 3y ago
  I did read your reply, and I think your reasons for excluding it are insufficient. You can't just exclude any DSL that succeeds (has become "universal") and say "see? no DSLs are good!" The point of me noting how people resisted (and still resist) regular expression usage is to note that just like any other DSL there are those that dislike it and eschew its use and instead just write the code. It is exactly what the article is talking about, where it advocates writing in the base language and not using a DSL. If you're going to make a serious argument that "DSLs are, universally, awful" then you're going to need to account for regular expressions a bit more carefully. That can be you admitting that you just dislike them and don't use them so consider them awful as well, but if you don't hate them then you may want to focus on the why, and it is likely a much more interesting conversation topic to pursue than "DSLs bad".

morby 3y ago

I would be comfortable calling HTML and SQL both DSLs. Given the scope of their use.

fyrn_ 3y ago

The random "ever done a CS degree?" is weird, and the premise that regular expressions are fundamental and mathematically general and therefore not a DSL is flawed: ebnf is also like that, and even more general. It _can_ parse HTML. Doesn't stop it from being an arbitrary representation of abstract syntax patterns. It's a DSL through and though and so is Regex. Actually pretty hard to find that pure of a DSL, which such a defined domain, as many DSLs evolve to be more general language like over time as the article says.

dunk010 3y ago
Well, I remember them teaching that stuff, and regex is quite clearly a very different sort of DSL than the ones being discussed. That combined with the comment author's seeming lack of nuance made me wonder if they'd ever looked deeper than "all things without a for loop are a DSL". I think we are getting too far into the semantics here though, at risk of splitting hairs and geting lost in the details. The core point is that the article is talking about some quite specific types of DSLs, so you can't say respond with "No, DSLs are useful" and then list off a bunch of unrelated stuff as a rebuttal.
- eduction 3y ago
  I was replying to a very unuanced article, with the headline “DSLs are a waste of time” and no further hedging on that headline in the text. So ya, I knocked down the argument on the argument’s own (very broad) terms. No need for the personal swipe. > The core point is that the article is talking about some quite specific types of DSLs It used specific types of DSLs as evidence but I don’t see a narrowing of the claim itself? Where are you getting that?
  - dunk010 3y ago
    > No need for the personal swipe Fair enough It used specific types of DSLs as evidence but I don’t see a narrowing of the claim itself? Where are you getting that? What makes me sad, as I posted in a top-level comment, is that I read this exact same rationale 20 years go, by Steve Yegge, and yet we are still having the same stupid debate in programming about whether we should use DSLs and then the DSL grows and grows and, lo and behold, it's Turing-complete, but its ergonomics are dire and its tooling non-existant. And it's not like this is some niche part of the ecosystem - it's how most people deploy infrastructure. What I despise is seeing the same problems come up again and again, and never seeing good solutions to them, jsut the same mistakes, repeated. Programming is, truly, terrible. Just a load of slaves building the Pyramids.

eduction 3y ago

I don’t think it makes any sense to dismiss regex “because it’s so universal” — you’re disqualifying a DSL because it’s successful, then saying all DSLs are unsuccessful. It’s just a tautology at that point, same as the article. (And SQL is not a dsl because it’s a … programming language? But also HTML is not a domain specific language precisely because it’s not a programming language? I don’t follow your logic at all. I don’t think either are programming languages, but both are languages in another sense of the word, as evidenced by their full names, and certainly dsls.)

klyrs 3y ago

> DSLs are, universally, awful, as they grow and grow until they encompass all features of a general programming language This is the Slippery Slope Fallacy writ plain. A great many DSLs are stable over years or decades. By your reasoning, a stable DSL is bad because it's going to grow. Why is it going to grow? crickets Peeling away the fallacy, we could perhaps agree that "the uncontrolled growth of a DSL is an evil best avoided." Or if I'm being less generous, we could look at the bottom of that slippery slope and conclude "general programming languages are bad," because that's what the author seems most incensed by.

eternityforest 3y ago
General programming languages were meant from the start to be something like what they are today. They're intended to manage complexity, not pretend nobody will ever want to do complex things. They are also not application specific. Language design is hard. DSLs are made up by people who's main project isn't the language. Sometimes the motive for a DSL is something like "I don't like how this takes 5 lines of code in JS, if I made my own language it would only take 3"

eternityforest 3y ago

Seems like the bad DSLs happen when one attempts to express a subset of general purpose imperative computation in an application specific way.