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> other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture Why does the land have to be used at all? > I am more wondering about protein intake

> other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture Why does the land have to be used at all? > I am more wondering about protein intake Seitan, tofu, TVP are the obvious high-protein plant foods. People without a taste for those things or uninterested in leaving their comfort zone can seek mock meats. Either way, it's trivial to hit protein goals.

riku_iki 3y ago
> Why does the land have to be used at all? and why not be used? > protein yes, but the topic of discussion what is the share of those nutrition in consumption for plant vs animal today and not hypothetical case when everyone switch to plant based diet. Also, it is not clear if whole chain of seitan production is much better than animal protein in term of efficiency.
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  Are you suggesting that meat might be more efficient than wheat or soy foods? These are foods we feed to animals for a tiny return on those calories. Seitan is just wheat gluten. You can take wheat flour off your shelf right now and wash out the starch so just the spongy gluten is left which is pure protein. And that's just one protein-concentrated food. I think you need to look these numbers up for yourself because it doesn't seem like you have a grip on how inefficient meat is, and I think you need to see the numbers for yourself to believe it.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > look these numbers up yeah, I looked, internet search says that seitan costs $15/lb in walmart, which is way more expensive than some chicken tighs, and I use this comparison as benchmark for efficiency and economical viability. Your hand-wavings and personal attacks are ignored.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Store-bought prepared and flavored seitan is a speciality item because it's not a staple of US cultural cuisine. It doesn't mean wheat gluten is expensive to produce. Why would you look at that and not just at the cost of wheat flour? Wheat gluten is dirt cheap to extract from wheat. Once again, you can make it in your home at the cost of wheat flour. Another example is soy beans where the majority of soy is fed to animals instead of consumed directly as products like tofu, TVP, and soy chunks. As for "hand waving", I suppose I can google meat inefficiencies for you. First google result: https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need... -- You'll notice that wheat is the most efficient source of protein especially when considering GHG emissions.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        > cost of wheat flour wheat flour has much smaller protein content than proper cuts of meat, so you just shift all this processing from industrial complex to your body with side effect of calories over consumption, blood sugar spikes etc. > soy beans uncooked soy beans also costs like 3-4$/lb in walmart, while having lower quality protein than meat. > majority of soy is fed to animals you can think that animal are doing your industrial processing: extracting proteins from raw soy/grains and converting it to well preservable and digestible form.
        hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Wheat gluten (seitan) is protein isolated from wheat flour by rinsing it with water. Wheat gluten is more protein-dense than meat, even beef, while being much more efficient to grow per calorie. So, no, you actually would consume fewer calories of wheat gluten to get the same protein you would from beef. Remember, it takes 25 calories of cow food (like wheat or soy) to grow one calorie of meat. You can eat those calories (wheat or soy) directly at 25x more efficiency, and that's just calorie efficiency without looking at water or land use efficiency. Finally, price doesn't tell you how much it costs to make something nor the financial viability at scale. Just like the price of beef doesn't show you subsidies, the price impact of basic demand, nor externalities. In a hypothetical world where we switch 100% beef consumption to wheat gluten and tofu, why would it be more costly when we aren't losing 24 calories for every 25 calories we feed to cows anymore? Even when you wash the starch from wheat flour to isolate wheat gluten, the starch is used as inputs into other foods. When we talk about the energy lost through tropic levels, it's lost as unrecoverable metabolic energy.

riku_iki 3y ago

> Why does the land have to be used at all? and why not be used? > protein yes, but the topic of discussion what is the share of those nutrition in consumption for plant vs animal today and not hypothetical case when everyone switch to plant based diet. Also, it is not clear if whole chain of seitan production is much better than animal protein in term of efficiency.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
Are you suggesting that meat might be more efficient than wheat or soy foods? These are foods we feed to animals for a tiny return on those calories. Seitan is just wheat gluten. You can take wheat flour off your shelf right now and wash out the starch so just the spongy gluten is left which is pure protein. And that's just one protein-concentrated food. I think you need to look these numbers up for yourself because it doesn't seem like you have a grip on how inefficient meat is, and I think you need to see the numbers for yourself to believe it.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > look these numbers up yeah, I looked, internet search says that seitan costs $15/lb in walmart, which is way more expensive than some chicken tighs, and I use this comparison as benchmark for efficiency and economical viability. Your hand-wavings and personal attacks are ignored.
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    Store-bought prepared and flavored seitan is a speciality item because it's not a staple of US cultural cuisine. It doesn't mean wheat gluten is expensive to produce. Why would you look at that and not just at the cost of wheat flour? Wheat gluten is dirt cheap to extract from wheat. Once again, you can make it in your home at the cost of wheat flour. Another example is soy beans where the majority of soy is fed to animals instead of consumed directly as products like tofu, TVP, and soy chunks. As for "hand waving", I suppose I can google meat inefficiencies for you. First google result: https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need... -- You'll notice that wheat is the most efficient source of protein especially when considering GHG emissions.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > cost of wheat flour wheat flour has much smaller protein content than proper cuts of meat, so you just shift all this processing from industrial complex to your body with side effect of calories over consumption, blood sugar spikes etc. > soy beans uncooked soy beans also costs like 3-4$/lb in walmart, while having lower quality protein than meat. > majority of soy is fed to animals you can think that animal are doing your industrial processing: extracting proteins from raw soy/grains and converting it to well preservable and digestible form.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Wheat gluten (seitan) is protein isolated from wheat flour by rinsing it with water. Wheat gluten is more protein-dense than meat, even beef, while being much more efficient to grow per calorie. So, no, you actually would consume fewer calories of wheat gluten to get the same protein you would from beef. Remember, it takes 25 calories of cow food (like wheat or soy) to grow one calorie of meat. You can eat those calories (wheat or soy) directly at 25x more efficiency, and that's just calorie efficiency without looking at water or land use efficiency. Finally, price doesn't tell you how much it costs to make something nor the financial viability at scale. Just like the price of beef doesn't show you subsidies, the price impact of basic demand, nor externalities. In a hypothetical world where we switch 100% beef consumption to wheat gluten and tofu, why would it be more costly when we aren't losing 24 calories for every 25 calories we feed to cows anymore? Even when you wash the starch from wheat flour to isolate wheat gluten, the starch is used as inputs into other foods. When we talk about the energy lost through tropic levels, it's lost as unrecoverable metabolic energy.