4 ms·

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educate

To be fair, caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. It isn't shocking that a staffer in the California state government would need to be educated about an issue, the first time it's become a political issue in the U.S.

zozbot234 3y ago
> caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture Wait, what? Systemic racism in what's now the U.S. was literally codified as a caste system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta And we're still dealing with the legacy of that, many centuries since.
- whats_a_quasar 3y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the link! I had a vague sense that Central / South America had a more complicated understanding of race than the white/black dichotomy, and this is helpful. I think that Americans are very familiar with systematic discrimination based on race or skin color. The distinction that I think confuses people not from SE Asia is that caste discrimination is between different classes of people who appear to be the same race and ethnicity from the outside. Perhaps discrimination against Irish and Italian immigrants would be analogous, though that faded so long ago that even my Irish NY grandparents knew that it happened but just kinda thought it was funny.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  We are? The US is still dealing with the legacy of the Spanish formalized caste system, because of territory it took over from Spain and/or Mexico a century and half ago? I call baloney. The US is still dealing with the consequences of its own sins. I don't think it inherited Spain's sins when it took the land.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
uoaei 3y ago
There's a preponderance of Indian and other South Asian immigrants in California, so much so it can be considered part of the culture. It is shocking that such ignorance exists in California specifically, though not as surprising necessarily that such awareness is missing in other parts of the US.
HEmanZ 3y ago
It’s really basic social studies in the “world history and cultures” category, I would expect them to learn it in high school. The US had a literal race based “caste-like” system for much of its history. In the South this didn’t end until the 60s, and many people alive today were alive when it was still strictly enforced.
- sqeaky 3y ago
  History is functionally infinite, history class time very finite. I don't think analogies to the caste clarify complex race issues in the US.
kevinventullo 3y ago
caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. I mean, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin as one of many, many examples.
- scarmig 3y ago
  "Boston Brahmin" doesn't capture any of the subtleties of caste, nor is it long lasting. The salience of that group lasted at most two centuties, and most Americans wouldn't immediately place someone named Ted Brinley in that group on hearing the name. Exogamy was rampant. The same things are not at all true of a Brahmin.
  - kevinventullo 3y ago
    nor is it long lasting. Good point, there’s no such thing as old money, or legacy admissions, or even good old-fashioned racism in America. We left that in the 20th century!
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      That's not a direct analogue to the Hindu caste system because at most generation or two were perfectly sufficient to transition to a higher level 'caste'.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      Race as we know it is a modern invention, approximately four centuries old. It's a toddler compared to caste.
- wwtrv 3y ago
  It's not a caste in the direct sense. I mean rich people who adopted their cultural practices or married into (which would be hardly even possible in a 'true' caste system) were generally socially accepted. Of course being Irish/Catholic/Black etc. would've disqualified you but it's not quite the same thing.
giardini 3y ago
From my (USA American) viewpoint, caste discrimination seems very close to discrimination based on national (or group, e.g., Roma) origin. I would not be surprised (but do not know) were some instances of caste separation historically based on national origin. How does caste discrimination differ from discrimination due to national origin (other than the fact that it obviously does not go away after multiple generations b/c inter-caste marriage is taboo)?

zozbot234 3y ago

> caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture Wait, what? Systemic racism in what's now the U.S. was literally codified as a caste system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta And we're still dealing with the legacy of that, many centuries since.

whats_a_quasar 3y ago
Interesting, thanks for the link! I had a vague sense that Central / South America had a more complicated understanding of race than the white/black dichotomy, and this is helpful. I think that Americans are very familiar with systematic discrimination based on race or skin color. The distinction that I think confuses people not from SE Asia is that caste discrimination is between different classes of people who appear to be the same race and ethnicity from the outside. Perhaps discrimination against Irish and Italian immigrants would be analogous, though that faded so long ago that even my Irish NY grandparents knew that it happened but just kinda thought it was funny.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
We are? The US is still dealing with the legacy of the Spanish formalized caste system, because of territory it took over from Spain and/or Mexico a century and half ago? I call baloney. The US is still dealing with the consequences of its own sins. I don't think it inherited Spain's sins when it took the land.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

uoaei 3y ago

There's a preponderance of Indian and other South Asian immigrants in California, so much so it can be considered part of the culture. It is shocking that such ignorance exists in California specifically, though not as surprising necessarily that such awareness is missing in other parts of the US.

HEmanZ 3y ago

It’s really basic social studies in the “world history and cultures” category, I would expect them to learn it in high school. The US had a literal race based “caste-like” system for much of its history. In the South this didn’t end until the 60s, and many people alive today were alive when it was still strictly enforced.

sqeaky 3y ago
History is functionally infinite, history class time very finite. I don't think analogies to the caste clarify complex race issues in the US.

kevinventullo 3y ago

caste has no direct analog in U.S. or European culture. I mean, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin as one of many, many examples.

scarmig 3y ago
"Boston Brahmin" doesn't capture any of the subtleties of caste, nor is it long lasting. The salience of that group lasted at most two centuties, and most Americans wouldn't immediately place someone named Ted Brinley in that group on hearing the name. Exogamy was rampant. The same things are not at all true of a Brahmin.
- kevinventullo 3y ago
  nor is it long lasting. Good point, there’s no such thing as old money, or legacy admissions, or even good old-fashioned racism in America. We left that in the 20th century!
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    That's not a direct analogue to the Hindu caste system because at most generation or two were perfectly sufficient to transition to a higher level 'caste'.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    Race as we know it is a modern invention, approximately four centuries old. It's a toddler compared to caste.
wwtrv 3y ago
It's not a caste in the direct sense. I mean rich people who adopted their cultural practices or married into (which would be hardly even possible in a 'true' caste system) were generally socially accepted. Of course being Irish/Catholic/Black etc. would've disqualified you but it's not quite the same thing.

giardini 3y ago

From my (USA American) viewpoint, caste discrimination seems very close to discrimination based on national (or group, e.g., Roma) origin. I would not be surprised (but do not know) were some instances of caste separation historically based on national origin. How does caste discrimination differ from discrimination due to national origin (other than the fact that it obviously does not go away after multiple generations b/c inter-caste marriage is taboo)?