4 ms·

Whether someone is a criminal or not doing this work is besides the point. The person is being punished for the crime through incarceration. Having to serve as

Whether someone is a criminal or not doing this work is besides the point. The person is being punished for the crime through incarceration. Having to serve as a slave in that system should be illegal. This is btw also common practice in Germany and France. Prisoners who want access to sports, more than 1 shower a week, a TV/radio, etc ... are only able to do so when taking part in prison work. Edit: And whether one is allowed to work, and how soon, also depends on whether one gets along with the guards. Work also decides if one can afford to fuel a nicotine or caffeine addiction - if not you have to go beg the Russians, Albanians or whoever runs that racket etc to add it to your tab that you can later pay off with interest ... Edit-2: what most don't seem to grasp is that a large percentage point of those inside are usually on the streets in cold countries and rather get locked up than freeze to death. Another sizable percentage are refugees escaping conflict zones and that fell through the cracks of a system that should have given them ptsd treatment. Not everyone inside is there because they deserve doing time.

Pigalowda 3y ago
[flagged]
- bdcravens 3y ago
  This doesn't really make for a compelling argument, as it's an appeal to authority without substantiation ("the majority agree with me, so I must be right") Plus, it's a "what if" statement that completely ignores our form of government (ie, the US doesn't have national referendums)
  - Pigalowda 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Actually, most laws aren't in the constitution, but rather, are encoded in laws as voted on by the federal or state legislatures. Our nation doesn't have popular sovereignty; we are based on representatives to presumably propose and vote on laws in our best interests. (Otherwise we likely wouldn't have income tax or speed limits). Remember, there was a time when a large portion of our nation thought owning humans and forcing them to work under inhumane conditions was acceptable. However for this conversation, I'd use the spirit of checks and balances as the rule of law. The legal system has a conflict of interest when it has discretion to incarcerate those it can profit from. I agree with another comment of yours - labor to support the system is ok (since that's fairly self-balancing); labor to profit the prison system isn't.
      - Pigalowda 3y ago
        The 13th amendment “Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” The US has popular sovereignty- just not pure democracy. I’m ending this conversation for the sake of my sanity.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nextnewaccount 3y ago
  [flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Could you please stop breaking the site guidelines? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146068 was particularly bad, and there are other cases). We have to ban accounts that keep doing this. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
sky_rw 3y ago
> Having to serve as a slave in that system should be illegal. Good luck with that. Legal slavery is literally codified into our bill of rights.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  It's a nitpick, but that's not in the bill of rights, if you're referring to the 13th amendment. ("Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted") Of course, the fifth amendment can be construed to take away any right as long as there's due process (which is why the state can take away 2nd amendment rights from felons) "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
- pylua 3y ago
  It’s hard to believe this couldn’t be amended given how unjust it is. I guess the fact that it hasn’t been amended shows everyone how expendable they truly are.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[flagged]
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  I don’t think this is taking the OP in good faith. People in jail are arguably “returning” the most important thing anyone can have— their time on earth.
ccakes 3y ago
> The person is being punished for the crime through incarceration The goal of the prison system should be rehabilitation. Punishment doesn’t mean anything if you’ve got nothing waiting for you on the outside.
- Gortal278 3y ago
  Why should it be rehabilitation? Keeping people off the street to so they can't re-offend is a pretty good goal.
scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
I see a disconnect between your pargraph 1 and 2. In 2 you describe something that actually sounds reasonable - re-socializing by establishing clear rules and giving prisoners something to do to feel that they are rehabilitating in a structured way. If I were in prison I’d take a job, paid or not. But that wasn’t your point in 1 or the rest so I’m pretty sure you think other way around, no?
- pseudotrash 3y ago
  I do think work is important part to rehabilitation and also meaningful to pass time. Where I have an issue with is as you point out the for-profit nature of prisons. Even in Europe where one might not immediately consider prisons to be for-profit structures, one has inmates assembling ballpoint-pens or assembling low tech items for EUR 5,30 per day. This will ensure the inmate can purchase coffee and chocolates once a fortnight. But it doesn't change their employability after release. Once they get out it is either back to crime, or straight into another state facility (homeless shelter etc). This could be different if the inmate were actually able to save up some money while there. Sure an addict will likely sound it, or they might have a chance to put it into getting help. There is another more meta aspect to it when considering a facility location. Many times the facility is a small town and then becomes the biggest local employer. Not just for guards but also lawyers, state attorneys, social-workers, judges etc. If that facility closes down it means these people would have to relocate. This is very hard to decouple and untangle.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
    I had no idea that it is this way in Europe as well (PL here). Personally, I don't have an opinion to argue for either way. If anything, the whole idea that a part of rehabilitation must include being locked in with other people in an awful place is repulsive to me. I'm reminded of this video: https://youtu.be/cX-r5ulpoQQ https://youtu.be/cX-r5ulpoQQ

Pigalowda 3y ago

[flagged]

bdcravens 3y ago
This doesn't really make for a compelling argument, as it's an appeal to authority without substantiation ("the majority agree with me, so I must be right") Plus, it's a "what if" statement that completely ignores our form of government (ie, the US doesn't have national referendums)
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Actually, most laws aren't in the constitution, but rather, are encoded in laws as voted on by the federal or state legislatures. Our nation doesn't have popular sovereignty; we are based on representatives to presumably propose and vote on laws in our best interests. (Otherwise we likely wouldn't have income tax or speed limits). Remember, there was a time when a large portion of our nation thought owning humans and forcing them to work under inhumane conditions was acceptable. However for this conversation, I'd use the spirit of checks and balances as the rule of law. The legal system has a conflict of interest when it has discretion to incarcerate those it can profit from. I agree with another comment of yours - labor to support the system is ok (since that's fairly self-balancing); labor to profit the prison system isn't.
    - Pigalowda 3y ago
      The 13th amendment “Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” The US has popular sovereignty- just not pure democracy. I’m ending this conversation for the sake of my sanity.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nextnewaccount 3y ago
[flagged]
dang 3y ago
Could you please stop breaking the site guidelines? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37146068 was particularly bad, and there are other cases). We have to ban accounts that keep doing this. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.

sky_rw 3y ago

> Having to serve as a slave in that system should be illegal. Good luck with that. Legal slavery is literally codified into our bill of rights.

bdcravens 3y ago
It's a nitpick, but that's not in the bill of rights, if you're referring to the 13th amendment. ("Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted") Of course, the fifth amendment can be construed to take away any right as long as there's due process (which is why the state can take away 2nd amendment rights from felons) "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
pylua 3y ago
It’s hard to believe this couldn’t be amended given how unjust it is. I guess the fact that it hasn’t been amended shows everyone how expendable they truly are.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

[flagged]

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
I don’t think this is taking the OP in good faith. People in jail are arguably “returning” the most important thing anyone can have— their time on earth.

ccakes 3y ago

> The person is being punished for the crime through incarceration The goal of the prison system should be rehabilitation. Punishment doesn’t mean anything if you’ve got nothing waiting for you on the outside.

Gortal278 3y ago
Why should it be rehabilitation? Keeping people off the street to so they can't re-offend is a pretty good goal.

scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago

I see a disconnect between your pargraph 1 and 2. In 2 you describe something that actually sounds reasonable - re-socializing by establishing clear rules and giving prisoners something to do to feel that they are rehabilitating in a structured way. If I were in prison I’d take a job, paid or not. But that wasn’t your point in 1 or the rest so I’m pretty sure you think other way around, no?

pseudotrash 3y ago
I do think work is important part to rehabilitation and also meaningful to pass time. Where I have an issue with is as you point out the for-profit nature of prisons. Even in Europe where one might not immediately consider prisons to be for-profit structures, one has inmates assembling ballpoint-pens or assembling low tech items for EUR 5,30 per day. This will ensure the inmate can purchase coffee and chocolates once a fortnight. But it doesn't change their employability after release. Once they get out it is either back to crime, or straight into another state facility (homeless shelter etc). This could be different if the inmate were actually able to save up some money while there. Sure an addict will likely sound it, or they might have a chance to put it into getting help. There is another more meta aspect to it when considering a facility location. Many times the facility is a small town and then becomes the biggest local employer. Not just for guards but also lawyers, state attorneys, social-workers, judges etc. If that facility closes down it means these people would have to relocate. This is very hard to decouple and untangle.
- scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
  I had no idea that it is this way in Europe as well (PL here). Personally, I don't have an opinion to argue for either way. If anything, the whole idea that a part of rehabilitation must include being locked in with other people in an awful place is repulsive to me. I'm reminded of this video: https://youtu.be/cX-r5ulpoQQ https://youtu.be/cX-r5ulpoQQ