4 ms·

Isn't this already known? The reason I only take a low dose of Vit E is because higher doses can increase the risk of cancer – like I assumed is true of all ant

by kypro 3y ago

Isn't this already known? The reason I only take a low dose of Vit E is because higher doses can increase the risk of cancer – like I assumed is true of all antioxidants?

arcticbull 3y ago
Vitamin E is fat soluble, which means that you can definitely take too much (unlike C for instance, which is water soluble). It can cause headaches, nausea, blood thinning and rarely even fatal bleeding. I suspect that's a much bigger reason to be careful with the quantity of fat-soluble vitamins you take. But also note that vitamins aren't FDA regulated, and they're a complete grab bag in terms of quality and bioavailability. Generally unless prescribed by a doctor for a specific condition or if you know your diet is lacking in a specific vitamin (like B complex for vegans), you get more than enough from your diet. [1] [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-multivitamins-make-you-healthier https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-multivitamins-...
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  What about vitamin D? I've had gastric sleeve surgery a decade ago. Ever since every blood test I take usually has me deficient in that. My doctor has me on 5 to 10k, right now trying 5k. I also have gout and an abnormally high amount of kidney stones sitting in my kidney, last month I had to get a catheter and 2 trips to the ER over one lousy kidney stone. I'm wanting to figure out the best way to regulate the things in my body with less Kidney stones, uric acid etc, and that won't upset my depression, anxiety, and ADHD.
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    My suspicion about vitamin D is the positive effects are minor. Short term deficiency doesn't do anything. But long term chronic deficiency negatively impacts your health. And deficiency in children is much worse than in adults[1]. I think sure take vitamin D but don't expect much. [1] Friend that's a public health nurse says they're seeing kids with rickets and bad teeth in Marin County. Because vegetarianism, sunscreen and milk alternatives. They don't see any of that with poor kids in Oakland because they're on WIC and not getting woo woo healthcare.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      > woo woo healthcare What a time to be alive.
- 2devnull 3y ago
  I don’t know, the advice in that link is, don’t take a multivitamin because there isn’t a lot of evidence it will do a lot of good. Instead they say you should just have a perfect diet, and to consult with a dietician if you feel you aren’t getting a perfect diet. Seems to me that few people eat a perfect diet, and I’d be amazed if there’s evidence dieticians work better than multivitamins. People don’t eat right, not because they need education, but because unhealthy diets are tasty, cheap, convenient, etc… And multivitamins are not all the same, they have radically different formulations, so I doubt the results of any research that didn’t specify a specific multivitamin, or break results by gender or age. (Vitamin needs/ deficiencies are often age related. Consider subsets like prenatal vitamins, vitamins for the elderly, etc…)
- kypro 3y ago
  > Vitamin E is fat soluble, which means that you can definitely take too much I think we're talking about different things here. You're talking about the risk of toxicity from taking high doses of fat-soluble vitamins. I'm talking about the risk of taking anti-inflammatory supplements / drugs generally (regardless of dose). In general I agree with you on taking vitamins, however the reason I take a very low dose of Vit E is because I have a genetic predisposition to liver inflammation. Vit E is one of the few things which helps me reduce this inflammation which helps me mitigate against long-term damage, but reducing inflammation too much can increase risk of liver cancer, hence why I only take a low dose. This is also the reason patients with late-stage liver disease are typically not given Vit E because they're at a higher risk of developing liver cancer. On taking Vitamins generally I think most people in the West would benefit from a high-quality low dose Vit D supplement. Something around 1,000 - 3,000 UIs daily is almost certainly safe and the majority of people would benefit. Higher doses are probably preferable in many cases, but you should be monitoring blood concentrations at that point to ensure you're not reaching toxic levels. Otherwise, yes, supplementing is silly unless you have a reason for it. I hang out in a lot of liver health communities one of the most common reasons I find people have unexplained elevated liver enzymes is because they're taking low quality (often herbal) supplements.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    What's interesting with Vitamin D supplementation is there doesn't appear to be any strong clinical evidence for its effectiveness unless you're severely deficient and on the road to rickets. So long as your serum 25OHD concentration is >50nmol/L according to this meta analysis, there's no clear effects. [1] > In conclusion, supplementation of vitamin D-replete individuals does not generate overall health benefits; however, correction of severe vitamin D deficiency remains essential. Probably would be a lot better off going outside and synthesizing your own. Spending time in nature and in the sun does a lot of other useful things - for instance UV exposure induces nitric oxide synthesis too, which lowers blood pressure. [2] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593895/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593895/
- ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 3y ago
  Another condition for supplementation is the possession of a disorder which causes malabsorption, like SIBO.
GoToRO 3y ago
I saw a documentary where they presented a study in which they did exactly that: they gave about 7 people high doses of antioxidants. Because antioxidants good. About 3 of them got cancer before they could finish the study. They had to stop the study early.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  n=7 is pretty small for a nutritional study that didn't even finish. I'd be very wary of relying on that.
  - GoToRO 3y ago
    Nobody is relying on anything. The early results were too scary for people (scientists and patients) to continue. Anyway, the conclusion was that more antioxidants is not necessarily better and that we still don't understand how things work.
CrHn3 3y ago
That does not seem to be the case for coQ10[1]. With coQ10, it's only effective at a therapeutic level which entails higher doses[2]. Vitamin E as α-tocopherol has been associated with increased prostate cancer[3]. Natural tocopherols rich in γ-T, γ-TmT, or similar tocopherol mixtures show more promise for cancer applications[4]. 1. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/coenzyme-q10-pdq https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/coenzym... 2. https://youtu.be/9Z7X9WPWv4Y?si=avOV0u4ruy_zNslr&t=746 https://youtu.be/9Z7X9WPWv4Y?si=avOV0u4ruy_zNslr&t=746 3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21990298/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21990298/ 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899293/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899293/

by kypro 3y ago

Isn't this already known? The reason I only take a low dose of Vit E is because higher doses can increase the risk of cancer – like I assumed is true of all antioxidants?

arcticbull 3y ago

Vitamin E is fat soluble, which means that you can definitely take too much (unlike C for instance, which is water soluble). It can cause headaches, nausea, blood thinning and rarely even fatal bleeding. I suspect that's a much bigger reason to be careful with the quantity of fat-soluble vitamins you take. But also note that vitamins aren't FDA regulated, and they're a complete grab bag in terms of quality and bioavailability. Generally unless prescribed by a doctor for a specific condition or if you know your diet is lacking in a specific vitamin (like B complex for vegans), you get more than enough from your diet. [1] [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-multivitamins-make-you-healthier https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/do-multivitamins-...

gremlinsinc 3y ago
What about vitamin D? I've had gastric sleeve surgery a decade ago. Ever since every blood test I take usually has me deficient in that. My doctor has me on 5 to 10k, right now trying 5k. I also have gout and an abnormally high amount of kidney stones sitting in my kidney, last month I had to get a catheter and 2 trips to the ER over one lousy kidney stone. I'm wanting to figure out the best way to regulate the things in my body with less Kidney stones, uric acid etc, and that won't upset my depression, anxiety, and ADHD.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  My suspicion about vitamin D is the positive effects are minor. Short term deficiency doesn't do anything. But long term chronic deficiency negatively impacts your health. And deficiency in children is much worse than in adults[1]. I think sure take vitamin D but don't expect much. [1] Friend that's a public health nurse says they're seeing kids with rickets and bad teeth in Marin County. Because vegetarianism, sunscreen and milk alternatives. They don't see any of that with poor kids in Oakland because they're on WIC and not getting woo woo healthcare.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > woo woo healthcare What a time to be alive.
2devnull 3y ago
I don’t know, the advice in that link is, don’t take a multivitamin because there isn’t a lot of evidence it will do a lot of good. Instead they say you should just have a perfect diet, and to consult with a dietician if you feel you aren’t getting a perfect diet. Seems to me that few people eat a perfect diet, and I’d be amazed if there’s evidence dieticians work better than multivitamins. People don’t eat right, not because they need education, but because unhealthy diets are tasty, cheap, convenient, etc… And multivitamins are not all the same, they have radically different formulations, so I doubt the results of any research that didn’t specify a specific multivitamin, or break results by gender or age. (Vitamin needs/ deficiencies are often age related. Consider subsets like prenatal vitamins, vitamins for the elderly, etc…)
kypro 3y ago
> Vitamin E is fat soluble, which means that you can definitely take too much I think we're talking about different things here. You're talking about the risk of toxicity from taking high doses of fat-soluble vitamins. I'm talking about the risk of taking anti-inflammatory supplements / drugs generally (regardless of dose). In general I agree with you on taking vitamins, however the reason I take a very low dose of Vit E is because I have a genetic predisposition to liver inflammation. Vit E is one of the few things which helps me reduce this inflammation which helps me mitigate against long-term damage, but reducing inflammation too much can increase risk of liver cancer, hence why I only take a low dose. This is also the reason patients with late-stage liver disease are typically not given Vit E because they're at a higher risk of developing liver cancer. On taking Vitamins generally I think most people in the West would benefit from a high-quality low dose Vit D supplement. Something around 1,000 - 3,000 UIs daily is almost certainly safe and the majority of people would benefit. Higher doses are probably preferable in many cases, but you should be monitoring blood concentrations at that point to ensure you're not reaching toxic levels. Otherwise, yes, supplementing is silly unless you have a reason for it. I hang out in a lot of liver health communities one of the most common reasons I find people have unexplained elevated liver enzymes is because they're taking low quality (often herbal) supplements.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  What's interesting with Vitamin D supplementation is there doesn't appear to be any strong clinical evidence for its effectiveness unless you're severely deficient and on the road to rickets. So long as your serum 25OHD concentration is >50nmol/L according to this meta analysis, there's no clear effects. [1] > In conclusion, supplementation of vitamin D-replete individuals does not generate overall health benefits; however, correction of severe vitamin D deficiency remains essential. Probably would be a lot better off going outside and synthesizing your own. Spending time in nature and in the sun does a lot of other useful things - for instance UV exposure induces nitric oxide synthesis too, which lowers blood pressure. [2] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593895/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593895/
ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 3y ago
Another condition for supplementation is the possession of a disorder which causes malabsorption, like SIBO.

GoToRO 3y ago

I saw a documentary where they presented a study in which they did exactly that: they gave about 7 people high doses of antioxidants. Because antioxidants good. About 3 of them got cancer before they could finish the study. They had to stop the study early.

arcticbull 3y ago
n=7 is pretty small for a nutritional study that didn't even finish. I'd be very wary of relying on that.
- GoToRO 3y ago
  Nobody is relying on anything. The early results were too scary for people (scientists and patients) to continue. Anyway, the conclusion was that more antioxidants is not necessarily better and that we still don't understand how things work.

CrHn3 3y ago

That does not seem to be the case for coQ10[1]. With coQ10, it's only effective at a therapeutic level which entails higher doses[2]. Vitamin E as α-tocopherol has been associated with increased prostate cancer[3]. Natural tocopherols rich in γ-T, γ-TmT, or similar tocopherol mixtures show more promise for cancer applications[4]. 1. https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/coenzyme-q10-pdq https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/coenzym... 2. https://youtu.be/9Z7X9WPWv4Y?si=avOV0u4ruy_zNslr&t=746 https://youtu.be/9Z7X9WPWv4Y?si=avOV0u4ruy_zNslr&t=746 3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21990298/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21990298/ 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899293/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899293/