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This is also why I don't understand people who insist we need to read the original philosophy texts. I can't. I tried reading e.g. Plato and I just want to arg

This is also why I don't understand people who insist we need to read the original philosophy texts. I can't. I tried reading e.g. Plato and I just want to argue with him forever. He starts with assumptions which were "obvious" then, but are just obviously wrong now. It's much better to read a modern interpretation / summary which takes the bits which are still relevant, and Contextualize them with what we know today. (Note - if you want to study history of something, by all means do read original texts. But if you actually want working knowledge of the subject, it's a horrible horrible way to go).

p1esk 3y ago
I tried reading e.g. Plato and I just want to argue with him forever. That’s the whole point of reading Plato. You’re being exposed to the Socratic method.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Then I have not explained myself correctly. If I take a philosophy class, I can talk to teacher, discuss things,explore questions and Contradictions. And I do :-). When Plato says "let us all agree there exists a perfect blue independent of any real world blue", I want to argue that no, "blue" is a human construct and dependent on accidental biology. We can't even make sure thay we all experience the same blue and what "blue" is, is purely definitional. There exists no inherent "blue" other than us arbitrarily taking a chunk of EM spectrum and attaching a loose meaning of "blue" to it. Plato did not know of EM spectrum or cones in our eyes. half the things he starts as "it is obviously true that..." I scream"no it is not! I challenge your key assumptions ".but he's dead and can't argue with me :-). So for me, that's not the whole point of reading Plato - it's the whole frustration. ----- Edit : you've added "that way you're exposed to Socratic method " which changes the gist of the comment, but I'll still argue it's a horrible way to do so. I understood Socratic method for a decade if not two before I tried Plato. If I tried Plato first, the dubious and implausible arguments would have turned me off completely. Both the teacher's and the student's proposals are frequently at odds with our current understanding, so as a reader I'm not invested in either and the argument feels farcical as opposed to logical. My point is: If somebody asks "what is Socratic method", pointing them to Plato is a horrible (and frankly elitist / gatekeeping) way to go. It can rather be explained in a few minutes with excellent, understandable modern examples. You can get working knowledge quickly and effectively. There are circumstances and situations where reading the original is relevant! But if you want to understand the basics, or even intermediate knowledge of actual subject, reading original newton and original Plato are not great ways to start.
  - p1esk 3y ago
    but he's dead and can't argue with me But you’re alive and you can supply both sides of the argument, if you believe the topic is interesting. The concept of “perfect blue” is beautiful and powerful - even if it’s wrong! It can lead to very interesting ideas, such as “universe as a mathematical structure”, or having a soul. Just play along and be flexible. Also, you can prompt GPT-4 to argue with you as Plato would.
    - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
      This reminds me of Kierkegaard arguing with himself in various publications under pseudonyms. I think he must have had some intense cognitive dissonance about most things for most of his life. It makes for a great way to flesh out a topic from both a pro and con standpoint, but it can't have been easy to go back to "normal" thinking modes after doing so.
  - NotSuspicious 3y ago
    Does there exist a perfect number four independent of any real world number four?
  - bawolff 3y ago
    > When Plato says "let us all agree there exists a perfect blue independent of any real world blue", I want to argue that no, "blue" is a human construct and dependent on accidental biology. Assuming some premise for the sake of an argument is not just a plato thing, and its not particularly relavent if the specific premise is true.
    - NikolaNovak 3y ago
      Oh for sure but I think it's a spectrum. I find it most productive when the assumption is asked and granted for something uncertain, interpretable, subjective, etc. Or when we are just having fun :-) If a) you are building a serious proposedmodel of reality and b) start with something demonstrably false, I'd have to be in a pretty specific mood to go with it :-D
  - 3y ago

p1esk 3y ago

I tried reading e.g. Plato and I just want to argue with him forever. That’s the whole point of reading Plato. You’re being exposed to the Socratic method.

NikolaNovak 3y ago
Then I have not explained myself correctly. If I take a philosophy class, I can talk to teacher, discuss things,explore questions and Contradictions. And I do :-). When Plato says "let us all agree there exists a perfect blue independent of any real world blue", I want to argue that no, "blue" is a human construct and dependent on accidental biology. We can't even make sure thay we all experience the same blue and what "blue" is, is purely definitional. There exists no inherent "blue" other than us arbitrarily taking a chunk of EM spectrum and attaching a loose meaning of "blue" to it. Plato did not know of EM spectrum or cones in our eyes. half the things he starts as "it is obviously true that..." I scream"no it is not! I challenge your key assumptions ".but he's dead and can't argue with me :-). So for me, that's not the whole point of reading Plato - it's the whole frustration. ----- Edit : you've added "that way you're exposed to Socratic method " which changes the gist of the comment, but I'll still argue it's a horrible way to do so. I understood Socratic method for a decade if not two before I tried Plato. If I tried Plato first, the dubious and implausible arguments would have turned me off completely. Both the teacher's and the student's proposals are frequently at odds with our current understanding, so as a reader I'm not invested in either and the argument feels farcical as opposed to logical. My point is: If somebody asks "what is Socratic method", pointing them to Plato is a horrible (and frankly elitist / gatekeeping) way to go. It can rather be explained in a few minutes with excellent, understandable modern examples. You can get working knowledge quickly and effectively. There are circumstances and situations where reading the original is relevant! But if you want to understand the basics, or even intermediate knowledge of actual subject, reading original newton and original Plato are not great ways to start.
- p1esk 3y ago
  but he's dead and can't argue with me But you’re alive and you can supply both sides of the argument, if you believe the topic is interesting. The concept of “perfect blue” is beautiful and powerful - even if it’s wrong! It can lead to very interesting ideas, such as “universe as a mathematical structure”, or having a soul. Just play along and be flexible. Also, you can prompt GPT-4 to argue with you as Plato would.
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    This reminds me of Kierkegaard arguing with himself in various publications under pseudonyms. I think he must have had some intense cognitive dissonance about most things for most of his life. It makes for a great way to flesh out a topic from both a pro and con standpoint, but it can't have been easy to go back to "normal" thinking modes after doing so.
- NotSuspicious 3y ago
  Does there exist a perfect number four independent of any real world number four?
- bawolff 3y ago
  > When Plato says "let us all agree there exists a perfect blue independent of any real world blue", I want to argue that no, "blue" is a human construct and dependent on accidental biology. Assuming some premise for the sake of an argument is not just a plato thing, and its not particularly relavent if the specific premise is true.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Oh for sure but I think it's a spectrum. I find it most productive when the assumption is asked and granted for something uncertain, interpretable, subjective, etc. Or when we are just having fun :-) If a) you are building a serious proposedmodel of reality and b) start with something demonstrably false, I'd have to be in a pretty specific mood to go with it :-D
- 3y ago