3 ms·

> Which would attract story-lovers. And might lead them to approach it from the story-end first (rather than seeking some more solid to work with). Which could

> Which would attract story-lovers. And might lead them to approach it from the story-end first (rather than seeking some more solid to work with). Which could be a problem. Can you elaborate on this? Thanks!

swayvil 3y ago
Story-end-first means focusing on the stories. The big ideas and such. Dogma and rituals. Philosophy. As opposed to getting something real that you can observe firsthand. A solid method with solid results. It can be a problem because there's infinitely more to it than stories. But the stories won't show you that. So it's a bit of a trap. (And a very popular one at that)
- malauxyeux 3y ago
  Thanks. I've been hanging out in some meditation forums for the past few years. It seems to me that there's a clear "story-driven" dark pattern that goes like this: A person ... * has a distressing meditative experience, e.g., "I saw an angry face." * creates a story about the experience, e.g., "I saw an angry face because of childhood trauma." Then that loops. "angry face" makes "trauma" more salient => makes "angry face" more salient.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Can you recommend a good meditation forum?
    - malauxyeux 3y ago
      Not really. I mostly hang out to try to keep folks from going way off the rails (I hope). I don't know if further details will be helpful or applicable to you, but here's my experience: I'm not religious. I was originally attracted to "pragmatic dharma" because it seemed to present meditation as a series of techniques. It appeared to leave out religion and superstition. The religion is there, though – it just goes largely unnamed. For example, following a recommendation here on HN, I picked up the pragmatic dharma book, The Mind Illuminated. It removes almost all mention of religion from Buddhist meditation practices – but the author himself was a Buddhist who said in interviews that he experienced past lives in meditation. What's more, pragmatic dharma forums seem to attract a bunch of unhealthy types: experience seekers, spiritual braggarts, and genuinely unwell people. Posters make a lot of wild claims – "I stay in [pseudo-religious meditation state] 24/7. It's so amazing. Everyone says I'm so much happier." – and other commenters prop them up and ask for advice. There are solid, sensible people on those forums as well, but picking them out of the noise is difficult, especially for newcomers. These days, I prefer listening to Buddhist monks. At least the Theravadins I listen to focus on how meditation can make you a more understanding, compassionate human being, which I've come to see as the whole point. I know I'm going to get a serving of "past lives" and Buddhist cosmology on the side, but at least they're up front about it.

swayvil 3y ago

Story-end-first means focusing on the stories. The big ideas and such. Dogma and rituals. Philosophy. As opposed to getting something real that you can observe firsthand. A solid method with solid results. It can be a problem because there's infinitely more to it than stories. But the stories won't show you that. So it's a bit of a trap. (And a very popular one at that)

malauxyeux 3y ago
Thanks. I've been hanging out in some meditation forums for the past few years. It seems to me that there's a clear "story-driven" dark pattern that goes like this: A person ... * has a distressing meditative experience, e.g., "I saw an angry face." * creates a story about the experience, e.g., "I saw an angry face because of childhood trauma." Then that loops. "angry face" makes "trauma" more salient => makes "angry face" more salient.
- swayvil 3y ago
  Can you recommend a good meditation forum?
  - malauxyeux 3y ago
    Not really. I mostly hang out to try to keep folks from going way off the rails (I hope). I don't know if further details will be helpful or applicable to you, but here's my experience: I'm not religious. I was originally attracted to "pragmatic dharma" because it seemed to present meditation as a series of techniques. It appeared to leave out religion and superstition. The religion is there, though – it just goes largely unnamed. For example, following a recommendation here on HN, I picked up the pragmatic dharma book, The Mind Illuminated. It removes almost all mention of religion from Buddhist meditation practices – but the author himself was a Buddhist who said in interviews that he experienced past lives in meditation. What's more, pragmatic dharma forums seem to attract a bunch of unhealthy types: experience seekers, spiritual braggarts, and genuinely unwell people. Posters make a lot of wild claims – "I stay in [pseudo-religious meditation state] 24/7. It's so amazing. Everyone says I'm so much happier." – and other commenters prop them up and ask for advice. There are solid, sensible people on those forums as well, but picking them out of the noise is difficult, especially for newcomers. These days, I prefer listening to Buddhist monks. At least the Theravadins I listen to focus on how meditation can make you a more understanding, compassionate human being, which I've come to see as the whole point. I know I'm going to get a serving of "past lives" and Buddhist cosmology on the side, but at least they're up front about it.