5 ms·

Windows 8 may drive me to Linux

30 points by pwg 15y ago

xspence 15y ago
I, myself am an Apple-nerd - I've been with Apple ever since the Newton came out. I see in the case of OS manufactures (e.g. Apple, Microsoft, Canonical, etc), that moving towards a unified mobile platform is crucial when we all seem to live more mobile based than desk based. It seems to be the way the markets are shifting. Just as Apple has shown that they will (read: might) not be bringing people back for another OSX release in 11.x, and moving towards a more iOS-based system, I think it's safe to assume that Microsoft is following the same trend. In the case of the Xbox 360, the box-like interface has proven somewhat popular. Although users have been forced to play along with the Xbox version, the Windows 7 Phone has been a big success for Microsoft. I'm not a fan of this mobile transition, because it means that many of the desktop experiences I have may not exist on mobile platforms for a while. However, on the flip side, the mobile/desktop similarities and integration might prove worthy to the mass majority of not-so-tech savvy users out there in the market. I found that after a while of using Mac OSX 10.7.x on my MacBook Pro, that the only thing I needed was Logic Pro. So I stuck it on an old '09 Mac Pro and soon after installed Debian on my MacBook Pro. Looking back, I can attest that this has been one of the best decisions, though tech-savvy-ness is required to get it working and working with it. I don't know why I didn't switch earlier. If you're looking into a more smooth transition or fun-flavored OS, Ubuntu works a bit better.
- steele 15y ago
  bleh, Ubuntu is going down a similar direction with it's massive flyout menu. I can't use it without xmonad.
  - matzahboy 15y ago
    Unity sucks... just use XUbuntu (which gives you XFCE). XFCE is fantastic.
    - niels_olson 15y ago
      >XFCE is fantastic I use a small pile of operating systems every day, including Ubuntu Studio, which is now on XFCE, as my garage "juke box". Your statement doesn't jive with my experience. Is there a great youtube video, list of metrics, or something that shows great XFCE usage habits or at least what they're measuring to claim success at?
  - sad_panda 15y ago
    I like that style of WM too. I tried XMonad, but eventually settled on AwesomeWM.
notatoad 15y ago
so as i understand it, all the windows users are going to switch to linux because they hate change, and all the linux users are going to switch to windows because they hate change. okay then. if people want to keep using XP because that's what they're used to, they should just keep using XP. if people want to keep using gnome 2.x, they should keep using gnome 2.x. software changes. all these new user interfaces that the OS manufacturers are experimenting with to stay relevant in the iPad age are interesting and will surely evolve into something useful, even if they do currently have some major flaws. i wish people would just give them a chance.
- russfrank 15y ago
  "... all the linux users are going to switch to windows because they hate change." Where the hell did you get this from? Made me lol.
  - notatoad 15y ago
    it seems to be a common part of the unity haters' rants lately.
    - nilved 15y ago
      there's more to linux than ubuntu with unity
      - notatoad 15y ago
        yeah, but the people who write blog entries 'threatening' to switch all tend to be using unity or gnome-shell, or else threatening to switch to one of those two.
        michaelcampbell 15y ago
        But to Windows? Can you point out a few of these; I've yet to see one.
    - 15y ago
nemo1618 15y ago
Windows 8 is attracting a lot of vitriol, but personally I'm quite impressed just by how...well..."classy" it feels in comparison to XP or even 7. It seems like Microsoft is taking a page from Apple's book of good design. What Windows 8 needs now is a killer Metro app (sorry for the buzzword). So far the available apps have been pretty neat, if a little unintuitive. A must-have app that also showed off all the advantages of Metro and served a useful purpose would probably erase a lot of the Windows 8 hatred, and spurn more Metro app creation to boot.
- halefx 15y ago
  Replacing function with form is "classy"?
- tikhonj 15y ago
  Apple does not have a monopoly on good design! Also, if anything, Metro is farther away from OS X than Windows 7--the whole design is less like anything physical (Apple loves this, but Aero glass is also like this). The whole design aesthetic is what they call "authentically digital" and I like it quite a bit more than Apple's skeuomorphic (what random words I've learned on HN...) tendencies. Overall, I'm actually really happy with Metro styling. I'm also happy with the related design of WP 7 and the Zune software before it. Plenty of color, no rounded corners, fewer gradients and generally simpler, more minimalist design is what I like the most about it. In some ways, it's not dissimilar to the design of HN, which I also like.
- glesica 15y ago
  I think your point about a "killer app" has some merit. I've certainly found no reason to stay in Metro so far. However, I just can't see where the value is going to come from. Metro is neat looking, but I just can't think of anything that could be done in Metro, while maintaining the "look and feel" (and the tablet-accessibility) of the interface, that wouldn't be better as a web app. Sure, you might have a Metro skin that dumps you into the desktop to do complex tasks, but then there's no real value in the Metro component. Take a look at the Metro-based ERP app "concept" MS has apparently demonstrated: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-shows-off-windows-8-business-app-concepts/12189 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-shows-off-wind.... Literally everything about it looks like a (reasonably sexy) web app. Plus, it's an ERP, so there shouldn't be anything running locally, or very little. This is basically just a platform-dependent web application. In some ways, it even smacks of Active Desktop all over again. Aside from extremely loyal, MS-only shops (of which, I admit there are probably quite a few), I just can't see anyone using something like this for anything important enough to reach "killer app" status...
decklin 15y ago
Previous discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3667797 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3667797
krisrm 15y ago
I can see why the whole Metro UI thing is gonna make a bunch of long-time Windows users sad. Microsoft knew that.However, I feel like they're solving much bigger problems with Metro - namely, the huge gap that currently sits between tablet/phone sized devices and desktops. It seems like this is going to be the first proper attempt at bridging that gap: a minimum screen resolution, sensible asset scaling for high dpi devices, good strategies for handling different resolutions, and technologies that are architecture-agnostic. Google and Apple don't seem anywhere close, yet; Google's ChromeOS was kind of a flop (though I guess we have docked mode to look forward to in new versions of Android), and Apple seems to be more busy with the iPad and making sure nobody ever uses a mouse again.
- justncase80 15y ago
  Agreed. It's the innovators dilemma. At some point you have to break away from what your users say they want, innovate and give them what they don't even know they need yet. Or your disruptive competition will slowly bleed you dry.
javert 15y ago
They want their interface and their way of working to be completely under their control. Which, until now, it always has been. Not really, that's a lot of what attracted me to Linux. I don't understand why MS still gives users so little control of the window manager. (FYI, I use awesome wm under Arch Linux.)
dazbradbury 15y ago
It has taken 10 years and counting for large numbers of people and organisations to upgrade O/S from Windows XP. It may take a further 10 for people to upgrade from Windows 7, at which point, windows 8 style interfaces may be the norm for the devices we use. So unless there are direct problems in Windows 7 you want solving, or features you want implementing (which an application doesn't solve), who cares that it's available now?
- sad_panda 15y ago
  I think you're only seeing the world through a enterprise licensing lens. Win7 won't be on store shelves after 8 comes out.
  - dazbradbury 15y ago
    Fair point if you're talking about buying the O/S separately. However I bet a lot, if not most computers, will sell with Windows 7 pre-loaded for a few years at least. Looking beyond that, I'm not sure what the growth predictions are exactly, but I suspect the chances of the average consumer buying a tablet will be greater than them buying a desktop/laptop. At which point you'll want an interface which is usable with a tablet.
  - replax 15y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, where did you get that information from? You could buy XP licences well after Win7 launched and you still can (although primarily intended for use with the XP mode in Win7). You were also still able to purchase Win2k licences after Vista launched... Furthermore, I do not think that it would have much to do with viewing it through the enterprise lens as there still are many private people running outdated OS'es by choice.
andrewroycarter 15y ago
I actually like what windows 7 did and think 8 will be a great step forward as well.
mukaiji 15y ago
"I extolled the virtues of Vista" #FacePalm.
holri 15y ago
For power users who want control over their computer (which the OP seems to want) Linux has been definitly the better choice than any windows version for years. Commercial OS's are driving away from working to entertainment environments because there is the growth. The market for selling new working environments is saturated. But that does not mean that this market is dead or is going to die, since there are always going to be productive people. It is a big mistake to ignore this huge market.
majmun 15y ago
maybe you should switch to ReactOS http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html (when support for vista or win7 expires)

30 points by pwg 15y ago

I, myself am an Apple-nerd - I've been with Apple ever since the Newton came out. I see in the case of OS manufactures (e.g. Apple, Microsoft, Canonical, etc), that moving towards a unified mobile platform is crucial when we all seem to live more mobile based than desk based. It seems to be the way the markets are shifting. Just as Apple has shown that they will (read: might) not be bringing people back for another OSX release in 11.x, and moving towards a more iOS-based system, I think it's safe to assume that Microsoft is following the same trend. In the case of the Xbox 360, the box-like interface has proven somewhat popular. Although users have been forced to play along with the Xbox version, the Windows 7 Phone has been a big success for Microsoft. I'm not a fan of this mobile transition, because it means that many of the desktop experiences I have may not exist on mobile platforms for a while. However, on the flip side, the mobile/desktop similarities and integration might prove worthy to the mass majority of not-so-tech savvy users out there in the market. I found that after a while of using Mac OSX 10.7.x on my MacBook Pro, that the only thing I needed was Logic Pro. So I stuck it on an old '09 Mac Pro and soon after installed Debian on my MacBook Pro. Looking back, I can attest that this has been one of the best decisions, though tech-savvy-ness is required to get it working and working with it. I don't know why I didn't switch earlier. If you're looking into a more smooth transition or fun-flavored OS, Ubuntu works a bit better.

steele 15y ago
bleh, Ubuntu is going down a similar direction with it's massive flyout menu. I can't use it without xmonad.
- matzahboy 15y ago
  Unity sucks... just use XUbuntu (which gives you XFCE). XFCE is fantastic.
  - niels_olson 15y ago
    >XFCE is fantastic I use a small pile of operating systems every day, including Ubuntu Studio, which is now on XFCE, as my garage "juke box". Your statement doesn't jive with my experience. Is there a great youtube video, list of metrics, or something that shows great XFCE usage habits or at least what they're measuring to claim success at?
- sad_panda 15y ago
  I like that style of WM too. I tried XMonad, but eventually settled on AwesomeWM.

notatoad 15y ago

so as i understand it, all the windows users are going to switch to linux because they hate change, and all the linux users are going to switch to windows because they hate change. okay then. if people want to keep using XP because that's what they're used to, they should just keep using XP. if people want to keep using gnome 2.x, they should keep using gnome 2.x. software changes. all these new user interfaces that the OS manufacturers are experimenting with to stay relevant in the iPad age are interesting and will surely evolve into something useful, even if they do currently have some major flaws. i wish people would just give them a chance.

russfrank 15y ago
"... all the linux users are going to switch to windows because they hate change." Where the hell did you get this from? Made me lol.
- notatoad 15y ago
  it seems to be a common part of the unity haters' rants lately.
  - nilved 15y ago
    there's more to linux than ubuntu with unity
    - notatoad 15y ago
      yeah, but the people who write blog entries 'threatening' to switch all tend to be using unity or gnome-shell, or else threatening to switch to one of those two.
      - michaelcampbell 15y ago
        But to Windows? Can you point out a few of these; I've yet to see one.
  - 15y ago

nemo1618 15y ago

Windows 8 is attracting a lot of vitriol, but personally I'm quite impressed just by how...well..."classy" it feels in comparison to XP or even 7. It seems like Microsoft is taking a page from Apple's book of good design. What Windows 8 needs now is a killer Metro app (sorry for the buzzword). So far the available apps have been pretty neat, if a little unintuitive. A must-have app that also showed off all the advantages of Metro and served a useful purpose would probably erase a lot of the Windows 8 hatred, and spurn more Metro app creation to boot.

halefx 15y ago
Replacing function with form is "classy"?
tikhonj 15y ago
Apple does not have a monopoly on good design! Also, if anything, Metro is farther away from OS X than Windows 7--the whole design is less like anything physical (Apple loves this, but Aero glass is also like this). The whole design aesthetic is what they call "authentically digital" and I like it quite a bit more than Apple's skeuomorphic (what random words I've learned on HN...) tendencies. Overall, I'm actually really happy with Metro styling. I'm also happy with the related design of WP 7 and the Zune software before it. Plenty of color, no rounded corners, fewer gradients and generally simpler, more minimalist design is what I like the most about it. In some ways, it's not dissimilar to the design of HN, which I also like.
glesica 15y ago
I think your point about a "killer app" has some merit. I've certainly found no reason to stay in Metro so far. However, I just can't see where the value is going to come from. Metro is neat looking, but I just can't think of anything that could be done in Metro, while maintaining the "look and feel" (and the tablet-accessibility) of the interface, that wouldn't be better as a web app. Sure, you might have a Metro skin that dumps you into the desktop to do complex tasks, but then there's no real value in the Metro component. Take a look at the Metro-based ERP app "concept" MS has apparently demonstrated: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-shows-off-windows-8-business-app-concepts/12189 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-shows-off-wind.... Literally everything about it looks like a (reasonably sexy) web app. Plus, it's an ERP, so there shouldn't be anything running locally, or very little. This is basically just a platform-dependent web application. In some ways, it even smacks of Active Desktop all over again. Aside from extremely loyal, MS-only shops (of which, I admit there are probably quite a few), I just can't see anyone using something like this for anything important enough to reach "killer app" status...

decklin 15y ago

Previous discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3667797 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3667797

krisrm 15y ago

I can see why the whole Metro UI thing is gonna make a bunch of long-time Windows users sad. Microsoft knew that.However, I feel like they're solving much bigger problems with Metro - namely, the huge gap that currently sits between tablet/phone sized devices and desktops. It seems like this is going to be the first proper attempt at bridging that gap: a minimum screen resolution, sensible asset scaling for high dpi devices, good strategies for handling different resolutions, and technologies that are architecture-agnostic. Google and Apple don't seem anywhere close, yet; Google's ChromeOS was kind of a flop (though I guess we have docked mode to look forward to in new versions of Android), and Apple seems to be more busy with the iPad and making sure nobody ever uses a mouse again.

justncase80 15y ago
Agreed. It's the innovators dilemma. At some point you have to break away from what your users say they want, innovate and give them what they don't even know they need yet. Or your disruptive competition will slowly bleed you dry.

javert 15y ago

They want their interface and their way of working to be completely under their control. Which, until now, it always has been. Not really, that's a lot of what attracted me to Linux. I don't understand why MS still gives users so little control of the window manager. (FYI, I use awesome wm under Arch Linux.)

dazbradbury 15y ago

It has taken 10 years and counting for large numbers of people and organisations to upgrade O/S from Windows XP. It may take a further 10 for people to upgrade from Windows 7, at which point, windows 8 style interfaces may be the norm for the devices we use. So unless there are direct problems in Windows 7 you want solving, or features you want implementing (which an application doesn't solve), who cares that it's available now?

sad_panda 15y ago
I think you're only seeing the world through a enterprise licensing lens. Win7 won't be on store shelves after 8 comes out.
- dazbradbury 15y ago
  Fair point if you're talking about buying the O/S separately. However I bet a lot, if not most computers, will sell with Windows 7 pre-loaded for a few years at least. Looking beyond that, I'm not sure what the growth predictions are exactly, but I suspect the chances of the average consumer buying a tablet will be greater than them buying a desktop/laptop. At which point you'll want an interface which is usable with a tablet.
- replax 15y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, where did you get that information from? You could buy XP licences well after Win7 launched and you still can (although primarily intended for use with the XP mode in Win7). You were also still able to purchase Win2k licences after Vista launched... Furthermore, I do not think that it would have much to do with viewing it through the enterprise lens as there still are many private people running outdated OS'es by choice.

andrewroycarter 15y ago

I actually like what windows 7 did and think 8 will be a great step forward as well.

mukaiji 15y ago

"I extolled the virtues of Vista" #FacePalm.

holri 15y ago

For power users who want control over their computer (which the OP seems to want) Linux has been definitly the better choice than any windows version for years. Commercial OS's are driving away from working to entertainment environments because there is the growth. The market for selling new working environments is saturated. But that does not mean that this market is dead or is going to die, since there are always going to be productive people. It is a big mistake to ignore this huge market.

majmun 15y ago

maybe you should switch to ReactOS http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html (when support for vista or win7 expires)