5 ms·

Makes me want to distance myself from ever delving into the language knowing this is the drama the culture is engaging in.

by naillo 3y ago

Ygg2 3y ago
Well thephd dev is part of C comittee. Here's to hoping he won't generate drama there.
- mort96 3y ago
  You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he's certainly not the originator of this drama, and there's plenty of other drama which the Rust Project and Rust Foundation has managed to generate with absolutely no involvement from ThePHD at all. You're literally victim blaming here.
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    > You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he's certainly not the originator of this drama. No. Not with him in particular at least. I have bone to pick with people not applying Hanlon's razor, and attributing various fun conspiracies to people and spreading via social media. And he might not be the exact originator, but he is now the main propagator of it. In any case time will tell.
jzm2k 3y ago
You can still enjoy the language without engaging in this drama. I only know about this because it's on the front page of HN (maybe I'm living under a rock) and yet the language still works nicely and I enjoy writing it immensely.
- Joker_vD 3y ago
  Just imagine how hard would it be to write in e.g. Python 3 otherwise, sheesh.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Drama like this has influence on language evolution, on this specific context, reflection work from ThePHD was stopped and his employer withdrawn from all ongoing Rust efforts. Dramas in Python and C++ communities also had similar side effects on the people that were involved, and withdraw their contributions.
- mort96 3y ago
  The problem is, this isn't "drama in the Rust community", this is repeated gross incompetence and malevolence spanning years from the very top of Rust leadership. It's completely warranted to let that affect your decision about whether to rely on that language (and hence its leadership) or not.
artemonster 3y ago
The seriousness of this "drama" is hard to judge, really. On an "unserious" side all of this could be easily explained that adult nerds are compensating for their lack of drama in high school, because they were socially excluded and skipped this developmental part. OR, a more serious explanation would be they are going through growing pains of a new decentralized governance model and all of this "drama" is a process of ironing out communication issues, which is actually quite awesome for us, as a society. But the reality is somewhere in between or a mix of both.
- naillo 3y ago
  I'm assuming it is unserious, the use of the word "fiasco" is a tell. The fact that it's unserious but still made into a big fuss is an even bigger warning sign in my eyes to steer clear.
dale_glass 3y ago
Drama is unavoidable. People are imperfect. They have different opinions and priorities. Miscommunication happens. People unintentionally cause grave offenses. Sometimes they fail to convey the intended tone over text messages. Sometimes a single malicious person throws a huge wrench into a delicate mechanism. There's really no way around it, any big project is going to have some amount of drama. Good projects find a way to manage it and make corrections to keep the project on track, but conflict and dysfunction can't be entirely avoided.
- threeseed 3y ago
  I've seen enough drama for one lifetime in the Python, Rust and Scala communities. Surprised I didn't see more in Java over the decades but I suspect that's because those old Sun/Oracle guys would prefer to go fishing than argue about who is more woke or whose agenda is more insidious.
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    There's plenty drama in serious organizations as well. It just tends not to be public. You're very naive if you think at a place like Oracle there's no conflict, rivalries, and bitter arguments. At my previous job we had enough drama that the police showed up at the office. Over a year we had screaming, insults, people climbing on the desk and throwing a monitor, and people in management getting into a serious fist fight with a broken nose. Plus a colorful employee who couldn't get his mind out of the gutter and apparently corporate property theft. That was one surreal year, I've got to say, after which I changed jobs. Only none of that happened on a public mailing list, so the only place where you'll hear even a hint of that is here from me.
  - naillo 3y ago
    Python etc drama has historically been strong arguments about the future of various parts of the language. This is way different, this is bickering, personal attacks etc. I have nothing against healthy criticism and debate focused on making the project stronger, but this is unprofessional and not something I want to be adjacent to.
  - 3y ago

Makes me want to distance myself from ever delving into the language knowing this is the drama the culture is engaging in.

by naillo 3y ago

Makes me want to distance myself from ever delving into the language knowing this is the drama the culture is engaging in.

Ygg2 3y ago

Well thephd dev is part of C comittee. Here's to hoping he won't generate drama there.

mort96 3y ago
You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he's certainly not the originator of this drama, and there's plenty of other drama which the Rust Project and Rust Foundation has managed to generate with absolutely no involvement from ThePHD at all. You're literally victim blaming here.
- Ygg2 3y ago
  > You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he's certainly not the originator of this drama. No. Not with him in particular at least. I have bone to pick with people not applying Hanlon's razor, and attributing various fun conspiracies to people and spreading via social media. And he might not be the exact originator, but he is now the main propagator of it. In any case time will tell.

jzm2k 3y ago

You can still enjoy the language without engaging in this drama. I only know about this because it's on the front page of HN (maybe I'm living under a rock) and yet the language still works nicely and I enjoy writing it immensely.

Joker_vD 3y ago
Just imagine how hard would it be to write in e.g. Python 3 otherwise, sheesh.
pjmlp 3y ago
Drama like this has influence on language evolution, on this specific context, reflection work from ThePHD was stopped and his employer withdrawn from all ongoing Rust efforts. Dramas in Python and C++ communities also had similar side effects on the people that were involved, and withdraw their contributions.
mort96 3y ago
The problem is, this isn't "drama in the Rust community", this is repeated gross incompetence and malevolence spanning years from the very top of Rust leadership. It's completely warranted to let that affect your decision about whether to rely on that language (and hence its leadership) or not.

artemonster 3y ago

The seriousness of this "drama" is hard to judge, really. On an "unserious" side all of this could be easily explained that adult nerds are compensating for their lack of drama in high school, because they were socially excluded and skipped this developmental part. OR, a more serious explanation would be they are going through growing pains of a new decentralized governance model and all of this "drama" is a process of ironing out communication issues, which is actually quite awesome for us, as a society. But the reality is somewhere in between or a mix of both.

naillo 3y ago
I'm assuming it is unserious, the use of the word "fiasco" is a tell. The fact that it's unserious but still made into a big fuss is an even bigger warning sign in my eyes to steer clear.

dale_glass 3y ago

Drama is unavoidable. People are imperfect. They have different opinions and priorities. Miscommunication happens. People unintentionally cause grave offenses. Sometimes they fail to convey the intended tone over text messages. Sometimes a single malicious person throws a huge wrench into a delicate mechanism. There's really no way around it, any big project is going to have some amount of drama. Good projects find a way to manage it and make corrections to keep the project on track, but conflict and dysfunction can't be entirely avoided.

threeseed 3y ago
I've seen enough drama for one lifetime in the Python, Rust and Scala communities. Surprised I didn't see more in Java over the decades but I suspect that's because those old Sun/Oracle guys would prefer to go fishing than argue about who is more woke or whose agenda is more insidious.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  There's plenty drama in serious organizations as well. It just tends not to be public. You're very naive if you think at a place like Oracle there's no conflict, rivalries, and bitter arguments. At my previous job we had enough drama that the police showed up at the office. Over a year we had screaming, insults, people climbing on the desk and throwing a monitor, and people in management getting into a serious fist fight with a broken nose. Plus a colorful employee who couldn't get his mind out of the gutter and apparently corporate property theft. That was one surreal year, I've got to say, after which I changed jobs. Only none of that happened on a public mailing list, so the only place where you'll hear even a hint of that is here from me.
- naillo 3y ago
  Python etc drama has historically been strong arguments about the future of various parts of the language. This is way different, this is bickering, personal attacks etc. I have nothing against healthy criticism and debate focused on making the project stronger, but this is unprofessional and not something I want to be adjacent to.
- 3y ago