4 ms·

> how did you get 80% and 18% numbers from that link? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-graphic-1536x980.png https://ourworldindata.or

by myshpa 3y ago

> how did you get 80% and 18% numbers from that link? https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-graphic-1536x980.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/01/Global-land-use-g... from https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > also, calories is not the only metric of nutrition load True. Nutrition is more than just calories. Plant-based diets offer diverse nutrients, antioxidants, and fiber that promote better health.

riku_iki 3y ago
> https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use Ok, but still that pic lacks sources Actual UN FAO says it is 33% of croplands used for crops production for animals, and other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture: https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf UC Davis estimates that cattle farming consumes only 40% of arable land: https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/cattle-and-land-use-differences-between-arable-land-and-marginal-land-and-how-cattle-use https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/cattle-and-land-use-dif... > Nutrition is more than just calories. Plant-based diets offer diverse nutrients, antioxidants, and fiber that promote better health. I am more wondering about protein intake
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  > other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture Why does the land have to be used at all? > I am more wondering about protein intake Seitan, tofu, TVP are the obvious high-protein plant foods. People without a taste for those things or uninterested in leaving their comfort zone can seek mock meats. Either way, it's trivial to hit protein goals.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Why does the land have to be used at all? and why not be used? > protein yes, but the topic of discussion what is the share of those nutrition in consumption for plant vs animal today and not hypothetical case when everyone switch to plant based diet. Also, it is not clear if whole chain of seitan production is much better than animal protein in term of efficiency.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Are you suggesting that meat might be more efficient than wheat or soy foods? These are foods we feed to animals for a tiny return on those calories. Seitan is just wheat gluten. You can take wheat flour off your shelf right now and wash out the starch so just the spongy gluten is left which is pure protein. And that's just one protein-concentrated food. I think you need to look these numbers up for yourself because it doesn't seem like you have a grip on how inefficient meat is, and I think you need to see the numbers for yourself to believe it.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        > look these numbers up yeah, I looked, internet search says that seitan costs $15/lb in walmart, which is way more expensive than some chicken tighs, and I use this comparison as benchmark for efficiency and economical viability. Your hand-wavings and personal attacks are ignored.
        hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Store-bought prepared and flavored seitan is a speciality item because it's not a staple of US cultural cuisine. It doesn't mean wheat gluten is expensive to produce. Why would you look at that and not just at the cost of wheat flour? Wheat gluten is dirt cheap to extract from wheat. Once again, you can make it in your home at the cost of wheat flour. Another example is soy beans where the majority of soy is fed to animals instead of consumed directly as products like tofu, TVP, and soy chunks. As for "hand waving", I suppose I can google meat inefficiencies for you. First google result: https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need... -- You'll notice that wheat is the most efficient source of protein especially when considering GHG emissions.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        > cost of wheat flour wheat flour has much smaller protein content than proper cuts of meat, so you just shift all this processing from industrial complex to your body with side effect of calories over consumption, blood sugar spikes etc. > soy beans uncooked soy beans also costs like 3-4$/lb in walmart, while having lower quality protein than meat. > majority of soy is fed to animals you can think that animal are doing your industrial processing: extracting proteins from raw soy/grains and converting it to well preservable and digestible form.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > Ok, but still that pic lacks sources This seems like this could have the sources (cannot open it right now). https://github.com/owid/notebooks/tree/main/HannahRitchie/daily-calorie-supply https://github.com/owid/notebooks/tree/main/HannahRitchie/da...
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    it is believable that humans currently consume majority of calories from plants (likely wast majority from white rice and sugar), thought the questions is about animal agriculture land usage, and also how healthy/efficient are those plant calories.
  - dang 3y ago
    It looks like you've been using HN primarily, if not exclusively, to post about basically one topic. Single-purpose accounts aren't allowed because pre-existing agendas are the opposite of curiosity, which is what we're trying to optimize for. I appreciate that you know a lot about this topic and have good reason to feel strongly about it, but I need to ask you to stop using HN this way because in the end it degrades what the site is supposed to be for. Pre-existing agendas are repetitive and predictable, and that's the essence of what we're trying to avoid here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
    - myshpa 3y ago
      I appreciate your perspective. My focus on environmental topics is driven by my genuine interest and the belief that they're under-represented here. I've observed climate denial, and given the urgency of these issues, I felt the HN community might benefit from more exposure. If this appears as a single-topic agenda, I'll diversify my posts in the future.

by myshpa 3y ago

riku_iki 3y ago

> https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use Ok, but still that pic lacks sources Actual UN FAO says it is 33% of croplands used for crops production for animals, and other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture: https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf https://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf UC Davis estimates that cattle farming consumes only 40% of arable land: https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/cattle-and-land-use-differences-between-arable-land-and-marginal-land-and-how-cattle-use https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/cattle-and-land-use-dif... > Nutrition is more than just calories. Plant-based diets offer diverse nutrients, antioxidants, and fiber that promote better health. I am more wondering about protein intake

hombre_fatal 3y ago
> other land is not necessary can be used for other type of aggrecalture Why does the land have to be used at all? > I am more wondering about protein intake Seitan, tofu, TVP are the obvious high-protein plant foods. People without a taste for those things or uninterested in leaving their comfort zone can seek mock meats. Either way, it's trivial to hit protein goals.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > Why does the land have to be used at all? and why not be used? > protein yes, but the topic of discussion what is the share of those nutrition in consumption for plant vs animal today and not hypothetical case when everyone switch to plant based diet. Also, it is not clear if whole chain of seitan production is much better than animal protein in term of efficiency.
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    Are you suggesting that meat might be more efficient than wheat or soy foods? These are foods we feed to animals for a tiny return on those calories. Seitan is just wheat gluten. You can take wheat flour off your shelf right now and wash out the starch so just the spongy gluten is left which is pure protein. And that's just one protein-concentrated food. I think you need to look these numbers up for yourself because it doesn't seem like you have a grip on how inefficient meat is, and I think you need to see the numbers for yourself to believe it.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > look these numbers up yeah, I looked, internet search says that seitan costs $15/lb in walmart, which is way more expensive than some chicken tighs, and I use this comparison as benchmark for efficiency and economical viability. Your hand-wavings and personal attacks are ignored.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Store-bought prepared and flavored seitan is a speciality item because it's not a staple of US cultural cuisine. It doesn't mean wheat gluten is expensive to produce. Why would you look at that and not just at the cost of wheat flour? Wheat gluten is dirt cheap to extract from wheat. Once again, you can make it in your home at the cost of wheat flour. Another example is soy beans where the majority of soy is fed to animals instead of consumed directly as products like tofu, TVP, and soy chunks. As for "hand waving", I suppose I can google meat inefficiencies for you. First google result: https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts https://www.wri.org/insights/sustainable-diets-what-you-need... -- You'll notice that wheat is the most efficient source of protein especially when considering GHG emissions.
        riku_iki 3y ago
        > cost of wheat flour wheat flour has much smaller protein content than proper cuts of meat, so you just shift all this processing from industrial complex to your body with side effect of calories over consumption, blood sugar spikes etc. > soy beans uncooked soy beans also costs like 3-4$/lb in walmart, while having lower quality protein than meat. > majority of soy is fed to animals you can think that animal are doing your industrial processing: extracting proteins from raw soy/grains and converting it to well preservable and digestible form.
myshpa 3y ago
> Ok, but still that pic lacks sources This seems like this could have the sources (cannot open it right now). https://github.com/owid/notebooks/tree/main/HannahRitchie/daily-calorie-supply https://github.com/owid/notebooks/tree/main/HannahRitchie/da...
- riku_iki 3y ago
  it is believable that humans currently consume majority of calories from plants (likely wast majority from white rice and sugar), thought the questions is about animal agriculture land usage, and also how healthy/efficient are those plant calories.
- dang 3y ago
  It looks like you've been using HN primarily, if not exclusively, to post about basically one topic. Single-purpose accounts aren't allowed because pre-existing agendas are the opposite of curiosity, which is what we're trying to optimize for. I appreciate that you know a lot about this topic and have good reason to feel strongly about it, but I need to ask you to stop using HN this way because in the end it degrades what the site is supposed to be for. Pre-existing agendas are repetitive and predictable, and that's the essence of what we're trying to avoid here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
  - myshpa 3y ago
    I appreciate your perspective. My focus on environmental topics is driven by my genuine interest and the belief that they're under-represented here. I've observed climate denial, and given the urgency of these issues, I felt the HN community might benefit from more exposure. If this appears as a single-topic agenda, I'll diversify my posts in the future.