4 ms·

The first problem is no details like how much needs to be cut. You suggested it is impossible to build enough solar. Do we have to shrink to 10% (renewable elec

The first problem is no details like how much needs to be cut. You suggested it is impossible to build enough solar. Do we have to shrink to 10% (renewable electricity) or 20% (plus nuclear)? A good example or problem with degrowth is proclamation that things like planes won’t be possible. Aviation is 2% of emissions. There are lots of little things that they add up. Like concrete being 3%, but nobody says that have to give up concrete. The big ones are things like heating and cooling and transportation that are hard to give up. The other problem is that we mostly know how to solve aviation. Hydrogen or liquid fuels should work, both produced from green energy. New technology but no miracles. We know how to do green electricity. I agree with you that we need to change the world a lot. But it won’t work if impose suffering on people. Or do things that don’t work or don’t help.

palata 3y ago
> A good example or problem with degrowth is proclamation that things like planes won’t be possible. Aviation is 2% of emissions. Aviation came with oil, it will disappear with oil. It's not a problem of emissions per se, it's a problem of energy. Fossil fuels are not unlimited and we don't know how to completely replace them. > The big ones are things like heating and cooling We need to work hard on building isolation, obviously. And people need to live in smaller habitations. > and transportation We need more trains > Hydrogen or liquid fuels should work, both produced from green energy. Same thing: if you look at the numbers, we won't have enough green energy to produce enough hydrogen for aviation, even if technically we can make planes fly with hydrogen. We will have to choose where we use our hydrogen: for planes, or for steel and agriculture? > But it won’t work if impose suffering on people. Yep, we need to teach people and hope they accept to do what's needed to survive. > Or do things that don’t work or don’t help. Totally agreed here. Hoping for anything short of degrowth doesn't help. We need everything PLUS degrowth. And still, it will be hard because climate is already pretty messed up (with inertia) and biodiversity is looking bad.
- _hypx 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - palata 3y ago
    And thinking that we will have inexhaustible amounts of green energy is not hyper-optimistic and hyper-arrogant? We don't currently have inexhaustible amounts of green energy, and we don't have any viable solution right now. If you think that because we can make 1 solar panel, we will be able to replace fossil fuels, then you have obviously never done any kind of engineering in your life. Problems come with scale. It's not being hyper-pessimistic to know that.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      It's immediately obvious from basic physics that the world is bathed in green energy. It's availability is thousands of times greater than fossil fuel energy: https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-earth-gets-more-solar-energy-in-one-hour-than-the-entire-world-uses-in-a-year/ https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-earth-gets-more-solar-ener... The problem with doomers and degrowthers is that they are pretty ignorant people. They just assume that there's no solution or that green energy is just too weak to solve problems. This is why they are arrogant and not just pessimistic. They believe they already know the answer despite never looking for possible answers in the first place.
      - palata 3y ago
        I said you have no clue about engineering, not about basic physics. There is a big difference between saying "but Proxima Centauri is a nuclear fusion reactor producing a ton of energy" and actually leveraging it.
        _hypx 3y ago
        Last I checked, solar power is very cheap. Your problem is the same as with many degrowthers, you are basically stuck in the past and refuse to change your mind despite new information. It is the arrogance of "knowing everything" while not having any desire to learn.

palata 3y ago

> A good example or problem with degrowth is proclamation that things like planes won’t be possible. Aviation is 2% of emissions. Aviation came with oil, it will disappear with oil. It's not a problem of emissions per se, it's a problem of energy. Fossil fuels are not unlimited and we don't know how to completely replace them. > The big ones are things like heating and cooling We need to work hard on building isolation, obviously. And people need to live in smaller habitations. > and transportation We need more trains > Hydrogen or liquid fuels should work, both produced from green energy. Same thing: if you look at the numbers, we won't have enough green energy to produce enough hydrogen for aviation, even if technically we can make planes fly with hydrogen. We will have to choose where we use our hydrogen: for planes, or for steel and agriculture? > But it won’t work if impose suffering on people. Yep, we need to teach people and hope they accept to do what's needed to survive. > Or do things that don’t work or don’t help. Totally agreed here. Hoping for anything short of degrowth doesn't help. We need everything PLUS degrowth. And still, it will be hard because climate is already pretty messed up (with inertia) and biodiversity is looking bad.

_hypx 3y ago
[flagged]
- palata 3y ago
  And thinking that we will have inexhaustible amounts of green energy is not hyper-optimistic and hyper-arrogant? We don't currently have inexhaustible amounts of green energy, and we don't have any viable solution right now. If you think that because we can make 1 solar panel, we will be able to replace fossil fuels, then you have obviously never done any kind of engineering in your life. Problems come with scale. It's not being hyper-pessimistic to know that.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    It's immediately obvious from basic physics that the world is bathed in green energy. It's availability is thousands of times greater than fossil fuel energy: https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-earth-gets-more-solar-energy-in-one-hour-than-the-entire-world-uses-in-a-year/ https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-earth-gets-more-solar-ener... The problem with doomers and degrowthers is that they are pretty ignorant people. They just assume that there's no solution or that green energy is just too weak to solve problems. This is why they are arrogant and not just pessimistic. They believe they already know the answer despite never looking for possible answers in the first place.
    - palata 3y ago
      I said you have no clue about engineering, not about basic physics. There is a big difference between saying "but Proxima Centauri is a nuclear fusion reactor producing a ton of energy" and actually leveraging it.
      - _hypx 3y ago
        Last I checked, solar power is very cheap. Your problem is the same as with many degrowthers, you are basically stuck in the past and refuse to change your mind despite new information. It is the arrogance of "knowing everything" while not having any desire to learn.