4 ms·

At least in recent history in "melting pot" Western societies it seems to be related to cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community.

hef19898 3y ago
Care to share examples? Because wearong different clothing, speaking different languages and having a different religion are actually none. Discriminating because of those is actually illegal in most western democracies.
- Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
  Obviously nothing justifies discrimination, but yes, I can easily provide examples of "cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community" as your parent comment said. These are a few examples for Gitanos (Spanish Roma) as it's what I know, being from Spain. - Child marriage is common. You can see an (anecdotal) case here https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents-in-madrid-face-trial-over-child-marriage-according-to-gypsy-custom/ https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents... and some data (not Spanish-specific, but European-wide) here: http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-marriage-eu_en.pdf.pdf http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-mar... (page 13, right column): around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married and 16% of the population is married by age 16-17. - A level of sexism in their culture that is not considered acceptable nowadays by the rest of society. As described in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042812017582 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281... "During puberty, a gypsy girl is mostly groomed and educated for marriage, to care for and respect her future husband; it is a stage when she will go from being controlled by her own family to being controlled by her husband and his family. In the transition from puberty to marriage, a young woman is dependent on and under the control of her own family, with constant restrictions on her relations with young men except at family events", among other things (Google for "ajuntaora" and the pañuelo ritual, for example). - Problems in hospitals are common, since they often insist that the whole extended family is with the patient (hospital rules typically only allow 1-3 people at the same time) and a dying patient often results in violence (https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-cuatro-gitanos-por-agredir-a-varios-medicos-en-el-hospital-de-talavera-1276503545/ https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-..., https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-policias-desalojan-a-una-familia-gitana-que-apaleaba-a-un-pediatra_1641478/ https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-..., https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimiento-joven-200401220300-234237_noticia.html https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimien..., etc.). I don't think there is data collected on this, since Spain doesn't collect ethnicity stats (in general the American approach against racism is to collect race data everywhere, and the European approach is to not collect race data anywhere. Not sure what is best, to be honest). But this Roma source: https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_la_actuacion_con_la_Comunidad_Gitana_en_los_Servicios_Sanitarios.pdf https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_l... tacitly acknowledges the problems (they advocate for "enabling adequate spaces [in hospitals] for the stay of the extended gypsy family", encourage to "negotiate the compliance with regulations"). It also talks about an example of a violent incident and how it could have been prevented with intercultural mediation. As I mentioned, nothing of this justifies discriminating anyone, but I hope it sheds some light on why the causes for racism against these collectives goes beyond just "different clothes, different languages and different religion", also tying to the comment on "failing to recognize the problem" elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241).
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Too many people in the hospital, sounds like a very serious crisis that needs urgently beuig adressed. Re marriage: Until 2006 people in France could marry aged 16, in Germany you still can if courts agree (so, pratically you propably cannot), and could as a woman with the ok of the parents until the 1970s. Just to pick two examples. Now, obviously most people do not marry that young anymore. If people want, for whatever reason, and it is legal, sure, let them do it. They follow applicable law, and are thus, as much as I may find it weird, pretty much integrated. Integration goes both ways: One side adapts to existing rules and norms, and the other side accepts weirdness as long as it is legal. Changing laws to make said weirdness illegal would be a poster case example of xenophobic laws. E.g. passing a law making it illegal to have more than X people visiting a patient, whem knowing full well who will be the only group affected by it. Making accomodations for larger family visits so, that would be a good example or actively working towards integration. Reminder: Integration =|= Assimilation
    - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
      I don't disagree with the spirit of your comment, but you have to draw the line at some point. Regarding marriage, in Spain it's like in Germany, you can marry at 16 with the explicit permission of a court. I don't really agree with that (it makes no sense to me that people who are not considered mature enough to drink or drive can marry) and anyway I doubt courts would authorize arranged marriages, but let's set that aside, and focus on "around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married". 16+ is debatable, but surely we can agree that marrying before 16 is not okay? And 2% is of course a minority, but far from rare (in Spain we would be talking about something in the order of hundreds of such marriages per year). Regarding hospitals, of course it's not a problem of huge importance, but it's an example of how clashes can occur in everyday life and can cause laypeople to reject these cultures. In Spain, each public hospital room typically houses two patients. Being there with a sickness that calls for peace and silence and having 20+ people packed in the room or crowding the corridor to be with your roommate is not a pleasant experience, and this is rather common (as in, I know several people who have experienced it). Limitations on visits are not a specific law, they are just hospital policies for capacity and operativity reasons, which are even more limiting in cases like ICUs or during the COVID-19 pandemic. Also, they affect everyone. It can happen for example that a parent of five dies, and not all of their children can be with them at the moment of death. This is frustrating for some people, but it's how it works. So while I can understand that integration takes some effort by the majority population, what do we do? Allow 30 people to visit for a given collective but people not from that collective could still be denied being in their parent's deathbed? Allow it for everyone, which would need an exaggerated amount of resources? I see no reasonable solution other than just enforcing the rules, to be honest.

hef19898 3y ago

Care to share examples? Because wearong different clothing, speaking different languages and having a different religion are actually none. Discriminating because of those is actually illegal in most western democracies.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
Obviously nothing justifies discrimination, but yes, I can easily provide examples of "cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community" as your parent comment said. These are a few examples for Gitanos (Spanish Roma) as it's what I know, being from Spain. - Child marriage is common. You can see an (anecdotal) case here https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents-in-madrid-face-trial-over-child-marriage-according-to-gypsy-custom/ https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents... and some data (not Spanish-specific, but European-wide) here: http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-marriage-eu_en.pdf.pdf http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-mar... (page 13, right column): around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married and 16% of the population is married by age 16-17. - A level of sexism in their culture that is not considered acceptable nowadays by the rest of society. As described in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042812017582 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281... "During puberty, a gypsy girl is mostly groomed and educated for marriage, to care for and respect her future husband; it is a stage when she will go from being controlled by her own family to being controlled by her husband and his family. In the transition from puberty to marriage, a young woman is dependent on and under the control of her own family, with constant restrictions on her relations with young men except at family events", among other things (Google for "ajuntaora" and the pañuelo ritual, for example). - Problems in hospitals are common, since they often insist that the whole extended family is with the patient (hospital rules typically only allow 1-3 people at the same time) and a dying patient often results in violence (https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-cuatro-gitanos-por-agredir-a-varios-medicos-en-el-hospital-de-talavera-1276503545/ https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-..., https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-policias-desalojan-a-una-familia-gitana-que-apaleaba-a-un-pediatra_1641478/ https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-..., https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimiento-joven-200401220300-234237_noticia.html https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimien..., etc.). I don't think there is data collected on this, since Spain doesn't collect ethnicity stats (in general the American approach against racism is to collect race data everywhere, and the European approach is to not collect race data anywhere. Not sure what is best, to be honest). But this Roma source: https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_la_actuacion_con_la_Comunidad_Gitana_en_los_Servicios_Sanitarios.pdf https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_l... tacitly acknowledges the problems (they advocate for "enabling adequate spaces [in hospitals] for the stay of the extended gypsy family", encourage to "negotiate the compliance with regulations"). It also talks about an example of a violent incident and how it could have been prevented with intercultural mediation. As I mentioned, nothing of this justifies discriminating anyone, but I hope it sheds some light on why the causes for racism against these collectives goes beyond just "different clothes, different languages and different religion", also tying to the comment on "failing to recognize the problem" elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241).
- hef19898 3y ago
  Too many people in the hospital, sounds like a very serious crisis that needs urgently beuig adressed. Re marriage: Until 2006 people in France could marry aged 16, in Germany you still can if courts agree (so, pratically you propably cannot), and could as a woman with the ok of the parents until the 1970s. Just to pick two examples. Now, obviously most people do not marry that young anymore. If people want, for whatever reason, and it is legal, sure, let them do it. They follow applicable law, and are thus, as much as I may find it weird, pretty much integrated. Integration goes both ways: One side adapts to existing rules and norms, and the other side accepts weirdness as long as it is legal. Changing laws to make said weirdness illegal would be a poster case example of xenophobic laws. E.g. passing a law making it illegal to have more than X people visiting a patient, whem knowing full well who will be the only group affected by it. Making accomodations for larger family visits so, that would be a good example or actively working towards integration. Reminder: Integration =|= Assimilation
  - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
    I don't disagree with the spirit of your comment, but you have to draw the line at some point. Regarding marriage, in Spain it's like in Germany, you can marry at 16 with the explicit permission of a court. I don't really agree with that (it makes no sense to me that people who are not considered mature enough to drink or drive can marry) and anyway I doubt courts would authorize arranged marriages, but let's set that aside, and focus on "around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married". 16+ is debatable, but surely we can agree that marrying before 16 is not okay? And 2% is of course a minority, but far from rare (in Spain we would be talking about something in the order of hundreds of such marriages per year). Regarding hospitals, of course it's not a problem of huge importance, but it's an example of how clashes can occur in everyday life and can cause laypeople to reject these cultures. In Spain, each public hospital room typically houses two patients. Being there with a sickness that calls for peace and silence and having 20+ people packed in the room or crowding the corridor to be with your roommate is not a pleasant experience, and this is rather common (as in, I know several people who have experienced it). Limitations on visits are not a specific law, they are just hospital policies for capacity and operativity reasons, which are even more limiting in cases like ICUs or during the COVID-19 pandemic. Also, they affect everyone. It can happen for example that a parent of five dies, and not all of their children can be with them at the moment of death. This is frustrating for some people, but it's how it works. So while I can understand that integration takes some effort by the majority population, what do we do? Allow 30 people to visit for a given collective but people not from that collective could still be denied being in their parent's deathbed? Allow it for everyone, which would need an exaggerated amount of resources? I see no reasonable solution other than just enforcing the rules, to be honest.