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My point is that academic PL research has diverged significantly from the kinds of problems people are really facing. That's why we've seen array programming e

My point is that academic PL research has diverged significantly from the kinds of problems people are really facing. That's why we've seen array programming emerge organically to address a direct industry need, and it didn't come from the PL crowd at all.

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joaogui1 3y ago
APL started at Harvard (though it developed more in IBM) and even nowadays there's the ARRAY workshop co-located with one of the main PL conferences. The thing is that while array programming is amazing for some specific problems it's not going to help you make sure that you don't have memory errors, race conditions, or wrong states in your program
- peepeepoopoo33 3y ago
  The implementations of array programming in use today are quite different from APL, and they all came from industry. > it's not going to help you make sure that you don't have memory errors, race conditions Not only does array programming abstract away those kinds of errors, it also solves the problems that I care about: code that is faster, more expressive, and easier to read and write. Unwieldy type systems do not help me solve those problems.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    I can see how array programming helps with certain memory errors, but I don't think it helps with race conditions. Whereas eg Rust ownership, borrowing, and lifetimes eliminate one class of race conditions (data races) in safe code. Type systems also enable optimizations that do make code faster. Eg monomorphization. Consider that JITs makes untyped code faster by inferring types at runtime. See also this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37376010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37376010 I honestly can't make heads or tails of the idea that type systems don't help make code more expressive? They allow you to express your precise intent in a way that's legible to both humans and the compiler.
  - dang 3y ago
    I like (and share) your enthusiasm for array programming! but can you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=community%20identity%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Also, can you please stop using trollish usernames? Those aren't allowed either, because they basically troll every thread the account posts to. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- deleted 3y ago
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diarrhea 3y ago
> academic PL research has diverged significantly from the kinds of problems people are really facing Was it ever not?
- agumonkey 3y ago
  As soon as the programming landscape becomes too large.. PLT cannot address every crowd on the distribution. I guess he means that type theory is too far away from most people duties.

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joaogui1 3y ago

APL started at Harvard (though it developed more in IBM) and even nowadays there's the ARRAY workshop co-located with one of the main PL conferences. The thing is that while array programming is amazing for some specific problems it's not going to help you make sure that you don't have memory errors, race conditions, or wrong states in your program

peepeepoopoo33 3y ago
The implementations of array programming in use today are quite different from APL, and they all came from industry. > it's not going to help you make sure that you don't have memory errors, race conditions Not only does array programming abstract away those kinds of errors, it also solves the problems that I care about: code that is faster, more expressive, and easier to read and write. Unwieldy type systems do not help me solve those problems.
- maxbond 3y ago
  I can see how array programming helps with certain memory errors, but I don't think it helps with race conditions. Whereas eg Rust ownership, borrowing, and lifetimes eliminate one class of race conditions (data races) in safe code. Type systems also enable optimizations that do make code faster. Eg monomorphization. Consider that JITs makes untyped code faster by inferring types at runtime. See also this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37376010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37376010 I honestly can't make heads or tails of the idea that type systems don't help make code more expressive? They allow you to express your precise intent in a way that's legible to both humans and the compiler.
- dang 3y ago
  I like (and share) your enthusiasm for array programming! but can you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=community%20identity%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Also, can you please stop using trollish usernames? Those aren't allowed either, because they basically troll every thread the account posts to. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
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diarrhea 3y ago

> academic PL research has diverged significantly from the kinds of problems people are really facing Was it ever not?

agumonkey 3y ago
As soon as the programming landscape becomes too large.. PLT cannot address every crowd on the distribution. I guess he means that type theory is too far away from most people duties.