5 ms·

Reminds me a bit of the Cagot people who lived around the border region between France and Spain. These people where hated, discriminated and prosecuted for mor

Reminds me a bit of the Cagot people who lived around the border region between France and Spain. These people where hated, discriminated and prosecuted for more then a thousand years while people had forgotten what they ever did to deserve this. Already in the 16th century the Pope published a edict saying let bygones-be-bygones and forgave them for whatever perceived crime. Historians don't believe they where ever responsible for this perceived crime and that the Pope probably knew this but forgave them anyway in a hopeless attempt to stop the discrimination.

ithkuil 3y ago
I didn't know you actually had to "do" something to deserve to be discriminated against and persecuted. Generally you just need to "be"
- nine_k 3y ago
  Crimes would usually be ascribed to the hated group as an afterthought.
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    Yes but even if some ancestor of your committed a crime, what did you actually do to deserve being mistreated for generations? Your only crime is to _be_ part of that group, often in a way that you can't get away with. When it's skin color it's easy to see how you can't hide, but often people can't escape their group/caste even if they don't physically look particularly differently. Humans have a strong mechanisms to make sure every body knows the ingroups and the outgroups.
- rgrieselhuber 3y ago
  Many times throughout history it seems tied more to a refusal to conform to the consensus reality of the ruling class, e.g., not worshipping some emperor as a god, not having the same theology, questioning “settled” narratives, etc.
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
    At least in recent history in "melting pot" Western societies it seems to be related to cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Care to share examples? Because wearong different clothing, speaking different languages and having a different religion are actually none. Discriminating because of those is actually illegal in most western democracies.
      - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
        Obviously nothing justifies discrimination, but yes, I can easily provide examples of "cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community" as your parent comment said. These are a few examples for Gitanos (Spanish Roma) as it's what I know, being from Spain. - Child marriage is common. You can see an (anecdotal) case here https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents-in-madrid-face-trial-over-child-marriage-according-to-gypsy-custom/ https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents... and some data (not Spanish-specific, but European-wide) here: http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-marriage-eu_en.pdf.pdf http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-mar... (page 13, right column): around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married and 16% of the population is married by age 16-17. - A level of sexism in their culture that is not considered acceptable nowadays by the rest of society. As described in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042812017582 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281... "During puberty, a gypsy girl is mostly groomed and educated for marriage, to care for and respect her future husband; it is a stage when she will go from being controlled by her own family to being controlled by her husband and his family. In the transition from puberty to marriage, a young woman is dependent on and under the control of her own family, with constant restrictions on her relations with young men except at family events", among other things (Google for "ajuntaora" and the pañuelo ritual, for example). - Problems in hospitals are common, since they often insist that the whole extended family is with the patient (hospital rules typically only allow 1-3 people at the same time) and a dying patient often results in violence (https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-cuatro-gitanos-por-agredir-a-varios-medicos-en-el-hospital-de-talavera-1276503545/ https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-..., https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-policias-desalojan-a-una-familia-gitana-que-apaleaba-a-un-pediatra_1641478/ https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-..., https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimiento-joven-200401220300-234237_noticia.html https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimien..., etc.). I don't think there is data collected on this, since Spain doesn't collect ethnicity stats (in general the American approach against racism is to collect race data everywhere, and the European approach is to not collect race data anywhere. Not sure what is best, to be honest). But this Roma source: https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_la_actuacion_con_la_Comunidad_Gitana_en_los_Servicios_Sanitarios.pdf https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_l... tacitly acknowledges the problems (they advocate for "enabling adequate spaces [in hospitals] for the stay of the extended gypsy family", encourage to "negotiate the compliance with regulations"). It also talks about an example of a violent incident and how it could have been prevented with intercultural mediation. As I mentioned, nothing of this justifies discriminating anyone, but I hope it sheds some light on why the causes for racism against these collectives goes beyond just "different clothes, different languages and different religion", also tying to the comment on "failing to recognize the problem" elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241).
gnfargbl 3y ago
This is the first time I have heard of the Cagots. It's fascinating to think that there were untouchables in Europe until relatively recently. This is an interesting article on Cagots from the 1880s: https://zenodo.org/record/2119746/files/article.pdf https://zenodo.org/record/2119746/files/article.pdf

ithkuil 3y ago

I didn't know you actually had to "do" something to deserve to be discriminated against and persecuted. Generally you just need to "be"

nine_k 3y ago
Crimes would usually be ascribed to the hated group as an afterthought.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  Yes but even if some ancestor of your committed a crime, what did you actually do to deserve being mistreated for generations? Your only crime is to _be_ part of that group, often in a way that you can't get away with. When it's skin color it's easy to see how you can't hide, but often people can't escape their group/caste even if they don't physically look particularly differently. Humans have a strong mechanisms to make sure every body knows the ingroups and the outgroups.
rgrieselhuber 3y ago
Many times throughout history it seems tied more to a refusal to conform to the consensus reality of the ruling class, e.g., not worshipping some emperor as a god, not having the same theology, questioning “settled” narratives, etc.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  At least in recent history in "melting pot" Western societies it seems to be related to cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Care to share examples? Because wearong different clothing, speaking different languages and having a different religion are actually none. Discriminating because of those is actually illegal in most western democracies.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
      Obviously nothing justifies discrimination, but yes, I can easily provide examples of "cultural practices that prevent integration into the broader community" as your parent comment said. These are a few examples for Gitanos (Spanish Roma) as it's what I know, being from Spain. - Child marriage is common. You can see an (anecdotal) case here https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents-in-madrid-face-trial-over-child-marriage-according-to-gypsy-custom/ https://bnn.network/breaking-news/tradition-or-crime-parents... and some data (not Spanish-specific, but European-wide) here: http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-marriage-eu_en.pdf.pdf http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-forced-mar... (page 13, right column): around 2% of Roma girls aged 10–15 are married and 16% of the population is married by age 16-17. - A level of sexism in their culture that is not considered acceptable nowadays by the rest of society. As described in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042812017582 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281... "During puberty, a gypsy girl is mostly groomed and educated for marriage, to care for and respect her future husband; it is a stage when she will go from being controlled by her own family to being controlled by her husband and his family. In the transition from puberty to marriage, a young woman is dependent on and under the control of her own family, with constant restrictions on her relations with young men except at family events", among other things (Google for "ajuntaora" and the pañuelo ritual, for example). - Problems in hospitals are common, since they often insist that the whole extended family is with the patient (hospital rules typically only allow 1-3 people at the same time) and a dying patient often results in violence (https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-cuatro-gitanos-por-agredir-a-varios-medicos-en-el-hospital-de-talavera-1276503545/ https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2013-11-06/detenidos-..., https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-policias-desalojan-a-una-familia-gitana-que-apaleaba-a-un-pediatra_1641478/ https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2018-11-06/decenas-de-..., https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimiento-joven-200401220300-234237_noticia.html https://www.abc.es/espana/madrid/abci-altercados-fallecimien..., etc.). I don't think there is data collected on this, since Spain doesn't collect ethnicity stats (in general the American approach against racism is to collect race data everywhere, and the European approach is to not collect race data anywhere. Not sure what is best, to be honest). But this Roma source: https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_la_actuacion_con_la_Comunidad_Gitana_en_los_Servicios_Sanitarios.pdf https://www.gitanos.org/upload/15/90/1.7-GAR-gui_Guia_para_l... tacitly acknowledges the problems (they advocate for "enabling adequate spaces [in hospitals] for the stay of the extended gypsy family", encourage to "negotiate the compliance with regulations"). It also talks about an example of a violent incident and how it could have been prevented with intercultural mediation. As I mentioned, nothing of this justifies discriminating anyone, but I hope it sheds some light on why the causes for racism against these collectives goes beyond just "different clothes, different languages and different religion", also tying to the comment on "failing to recognize the problem" elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37378241).

gnfargbl 3y ago

This is the first time I have heard of the Cagots. It's fascinating to think that there were untouchables in Europe until relatively recently. This is an interesting article on Cagots from the 1880s: https://zenodo.org/record/2119746/files/article.pdf https://zenodo.org/record/2119746/files/article.pdf