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See now you're getting to the point but the point is that public transport is broken so we're patching it with cars. Perhaps we should be fixing that instead?

by baz00 3y ago

HPMOR 3y ago
This “we” you speak of is non-existent. It’s about individuals taking actions to fix the injustices and errors they see in the system. For all his faults Elon Musk does not sit on the sidelines. What you see as a transgression by him is nonetheless action, and it will not be fixed until you, or some other individual brings it upon themselves to fix it.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  If only individuals could pool their ideas and resources for collective action, maybe even without a profit motive. We could call it a government.
- JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
  > > For all his faults Elon Musk does not sit on the sidelines He sits on the sidelines for all the billions of problems which are not heavily subsidised by the government in one way or another. The fearless QB who only takes the field when the team has a 48 points lead and for Uncle Sam's team with uncapped salary ceiling. A true underdog story. Move over Kurt Warner. Not.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Say what you will about ISIS but they do not sit on the sidelines. This absurdist comparison isn't to say Musk is as bad as ISIS, but rather action shouldn't be confused with helping.
AlotOfReading 3y ago
I've seen this objection a lot and I don't really understand where it comes from. The only people who can fix public transit are the government and the public. Autonomous vehicles aren't being developed by either of these groups and in no way prevent them from fixing transit. What's the argument then? Is everyone expected to wait around until public transit is fixed before they work on something else? AVs are complementary to public transit. You're not going to take a robotaxi from SF to SJ. You might take one to the Caltrain station on either end and avoid needing a personal vehicle at all.
- jprete 3y ago
  AVs aren't complementary to public transit, though. From the customer perspective, the only difference between an AV car service and a taxi service is that one of them has a human driver. Why would any taxi customer take a three-leg trip from SF to SJ with two robotaxis and the Caltrain when they could have a single-shot transportation solution door to door?
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    Because the robotaxi journey is $80 (current Uber price) vs $20 ($10.50 Caltrain + $10 in taxis) one-way. Also the trains have bathrooms, faster, and for a lot of people, you can walk at one end.
- ForestCritter 3y ago
  public transit simply cannot go in the direction everybody needs it, when they need it in a straight route. It used to take me approx 3 hours a day, sometimes more to get to an from a job that was a 25 minute drive away.10 hours more time for myself a week is freedom to me.
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    To maximize the value of public transit, you need a strongly integrated economy. It would help if local leadership could say "You're building a business that has high flexibility in where you site it, so you should place it near a transport hub, rather than off in a suburb that causes a longer average commute for everyone." Yes, you can't do this for every business-- some have natural dependencies on specific site characteristics, but those seem likely to shape the rest of the city's transport decisions (how many cities have major thoroughfares that parallel existing heavy rail, for example)
- hakfoo 3y ago
  The promise of autonomous vehicles DOES tend to prevent "fixing transit". It reinforces the narrative of individual car ownership. In American society, you are seen as a bit lesser if you don't have an individual vehicle. Autonomous vehicles promise to expand individual car ownership to some groups that would normally be forced to rely on public transit (people disabled in a way that prevents them from driving, or repeat drunk drivers, for example). For the able-bodied, they promise the relaxed luxury of "someone/thing else is driving and I can work/read/relax" that public transport offers, without having to actually build public transport. This means the people with the strongest vested interests in public transit are already relatively outcast and underclass, and it will only get worse. Make the rich and powerful have to take a bus, and suddenly it will become a significant political concern that the schedule is a loose suggestion at best, and that nobody has cleaned the bus since George VI was on the throne. It would be interesting to expand on your last point-- an AV fleet that compliments public transit as a last-mile offering-- but it doesn't seem to be the model we're seeing sold right now. It's the same old vehicle designs clearly intended for single-family use, long trip times, and low duty cycle. I would imagine an AV system built as a "compliment" might involve small, slow vehicles, almost glorified bumper cars, with like 25km battery range, since the target application is to drive from the train station to a home/office, then return to the station for a battery swap and service. While each trip is a light task, a single vehicle might go on dozens of trips per day and as a result get a completely different wear pattern than your typical Hyundai.

See now you're getting to the point but the point is that public transport is broken so we're patching it with cars. Perhaps we should be fixing that instead?

by baz00 3y ago

See now you're getting to the point but the point is that public transport is broken so we're patching it with cars. Perhaps we should be fixing that instead?

HPMOR 3y ago

This “we” you speak of is non-existent. It’s about individuals taking actions to fix the injustices and errors they see in the system. For all his faults Elon Musk does not sit on the sidelines. What you see as a transgression by him is nonetheless action, and it will not be fixed until you, or some other individual brings it upon themselves to fix it.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
If only individuals could pool their ideas and resources for collective action, maybe even without a profit motive. We could call it a government.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
> > For all his faults Elon Musk does not sit on the sidelines He sits on the sidelines for all the billions of problems which are not heavily subsidised by the government in one way or another. The fearless QB who only takes the field when the team has a 48 points lead and for Uncle Sam's team with uncapped salary ceiling. A true underdog story. Move over Kurt Warner. Not.
TheCleric 3y ago
Say what you will about ISIS but they do not sit on the sidelines. This absurdist comparison isn't to say Musk is as bad as ISIS, but rather action shouldn't be confused with helping.

AlotOfReading 3y ago

I've seen this objection a lot and I don't really understand where it comes from. The only people who can fix public transit are the government and the public. Autonomous vehicles aren't being developed by either of these groups and in no way prevent them from fixing transit. What's the argument then? Is everyone expected to wait around until public transit is fixed before they work on something else? AVs are complementary to public transit. You're not going to take a robotaxi from SF to SJ. You might take one to the Caltrain station on either end and avoid needing a personal vehicle at all.

jprete 3y ago
AVs aren't complementary to public transit, though. From the customer perspective, the only difference between an AV car service and a taxi service is that one of them has a human driver. Why would any taxi customer take a three-leg trip from SF to SJ with two robotaxis and the Caltrain when they could have a single-shot transportation solution door to door?
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  Because the robotaxi journey is $80 (current Uber price) vs $20 ($10.50 Caltrain + $10 in taxis) one-way. Also the trains have bathrooms, faster, and for a lot of people, you can walk at one end.
ForestCritter 3y ago
public transit simply cannot go in the direction everybody needs it, when they need it in a straight route. It used to take me approx 3 hours a day, sometimes more to get to an from a job that was a 25 minute drive away.10 hours more time for myself a week is freedom to me.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  To maximize the value of public transit, you need a strongly integrated economy. It would help if local leadership could say "You're building a business that has high flexibility in where you site it, so you should place it near a transport hub, rather than off in a suburb that causes a longer average commute for everyone." Yes, you can't do this for every business-- some have natural dependencies on specific site characteristics, but those seem likely to shape the rest of the city's transport decisions (how many cities have major thoroughfares that parallel existing heavy rail, for example)
hakfoo 3y ago
The promise of autonomous vehicles DOES tend to prevent "fixing transit". It reinforces the narrative of individual car ownership. In American society, you are seen as a bit lesser if you don't have an individual vehicle. Autonomous vehicles promise to expand individual car ownership to some groups that would normally be forced to rely on public transit (people disabled in a way that prevents them from driving, or repeat drunk drivers, for example). For the able-bodied, they promise the relaxed luxury of "someone/thing else is driving and I can work/read/relax" that public transport offers, without having to actually build public transport. This means the people with the strongest vested interests in public transit are already relatively outcast and underclass, and it will only get worse. Make the rich and powerful have to take a bus, and suddenly it will become a significant political concern that the schedule is a loose suggestion at best, and that nobody has cleaned the bus since George VI was on the throne. It would be interesting to expand on your last point-- an AV fleet that compliments public transit as a last-mile offering-- but it doesn't seem to be the model we're seeing sold right now. It's the same old vehicle designs clearly intended for single-family use, long trip times, and low duty cycle. I would imagine an AV system built as a "compliment" might involve small, slow vehicles, almost glorified bumper cars, with like 25km battery range, since the target application is to drive from the train station to a home/office, then return to the station for a battery swap and service. While each trip is a light task, a single vehicle might go on dozens of trips per day and as a result get a completely different wear pattern than your typical Hyundai.