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A female friend who worked in an office setting described it this way to me: "I can't wear anything too revealing, because I'm perceived as easy or slutty. I c

A female friend who worked in an office setting described it this way to me: "I can't wear anything too revealing, because I'm perceived as easy or slutty. I can't wear anything too modest, because it makes me seem prudish or not fun. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and cute. Every single day."

stdbrouw 15y ago
There's a kernel of truth to this, but it's also somewhat disingenuous. At work, as a male, I can't wear anything too casual because it's unprofessional or might mark me as a hipster, but I also can't suit up every day unless I want to be seen as a corporate drone. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and hip. Every single day.
- adrianparsons 15y ago
  Woah, not the same at all. If you wear a low cut top in a room full of guys and are seen by some as a sexual object, it's taken on a new dimension. I appreciate the subtleties of male dress (I deal with the same issues you raised), but the pressure isn't the same.
  - toyg 15y ago
    But who's putting all this pressure on women? As a professional geek, I couldn't care less what my colleagues are wearing -- male or female alike. At my previous job, most managers (including mine) were women; do you think they were judging their "badly-dressed" female subordinates more harshly than their male subordinates? If yes, why would they do that, knowing all too well how hard it is to strike that "perfect middle ground"? Most of this pressure is self-inflicted. These problems won't go away until women stop listening to the idiotic fashion industry; if they don't, it's because their issues are less rational than they make them out to be.
  - stdbrouw 15y ago
    Of course, my point was mainly that "having to go through something every single day" can be a huge burden or a slight inconvenience, and I'd be much more interested to hear from women where on that spectrum picking work attire falls for them rather than assuming it reduces their quality of life to zero based on a dramatized quote. Again, not trying to discount your friend's experience and I sure as hell don't think men have exactly the same issue, it's just low on context.
    - adrianparsons 15y ago
      I completely agree. This thread is full of guys like me hypothesizing about what it's like to be a woman in the workplace. I'd love to hear more examples. I could be completely wrong.
- kabuks 15y ago
  Yeah stdbrouw, I think you missed the mark on this one. These things aren't even in the same ballpark. I imagine that being marked as 'hipster' has very different consequences for you than being marked as a 'slut' would have.
ryanwaggoner 15y ago
That does sound like a pain in the ass, but surely the problem is that the range is too narrow, not that there is a range in the first place. If a female coworker showed up at work one day in lingerie, is that really not supposed to mean anything and we're all supposed to go around like little asexual robots and completely ignore it? Ditto for the other end of the spectrum and for the male gender. Why do we have dress standards in the first place? Why not just wear a speedo to work if that's what you find comfortable?
- neilk 15y ago
  I agree that there is such a thing as dressing inappropriately. Let's further assume that they are doing so for the express purpose of attracting your attention. (In my experience, men are usually deluding themselves about how much women dress to seduce them, but whatever). The question is, how are you going to react to it? Because one person dresses inappropriately, do you have to react to it like a 14-year-old boy? Are you going to comment on it in a way that implies that women are there for your personal entertainment? Are you, by opening your mouth, going to encourage others to get even cruder? And what about all the other women you work with, or will potentially work with (who probably resent the woman who overdoes the cleavage too)? I understand that you feel that it's unrealistic to ban sexuality from the workplace. But it's not prudishness that is called for, but judgment. Consider that your actions take place in an existing context. In 2012, it doesn't take too many comments like that before your workplace or your open source project or whatever turns into a hostile space for women. Now, I've worked on volunteer projects with people who knew each other really well, and things are considerably looser with regards to sexual humor. The point is, you have to create an environment where women have a secure status. In the typical workplace, people barely know each other, and women are just barely holding onto whatever status they've earned. This probably means refraining from the more puerile jokes and observations. P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I've failed at this sometimes myself. I had a colleague who was a great programmer, but I was distracted by her body. She wore shapeless t-shirts covered in shapeless hoodies most of the time, in part, I'm sure, to hide this. But more's the pity that she basically has to dress in a tent in order to have her colleagues look her in the eye.
einhverfr 15y ago
So, what is the solution? Work uniforms for everyone? But more to the point, doesn't this suggest a desire on one hand to seem cute, feminine, and romantically attractive, but not to get too much attention? If this is the case, then are there bright lines at all in this area?

stdbrouw 15y ago

There's a kernel of truth to this, but it's also somewhat disingenuous. At work, as a male, I can't wear anything too casual because it's unprofessional or might mark me as a hipster, but I also can't suit up every day unless I want to be seen as a corporate drone. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and hip. Every single day.

adrianparsons 15y ago
Woah, not the same at all. If you wear a low cut top in a room full of guys and are seen by some as a sexual object, it's taken on a new dimension. I appreciate the subtleties of male dress (I deal with the same issues you raised), but the pressure isn't the same.
- toyg 15y ago
  But who's putting all this pressure on women? As a professional geek, I couldn't care less what my colleagues are wearing -- male or female alike. At my previous job, most managers (including mine) were women; do you think they were judging their "badly-dressed" female subordinates more harshly than their male subordinates? If yes, why would they do that, knowing all too well how hard it is to strike that "perfect middle ground"? Most of this pressure is self-inflicted. These problems won't go away until women stop listening to the idiotic fashion industry; if they don't, it's because their issues are less rational than they make them out to be.
- stdbrouw 15y ago
  Of course, my point was mainly that "having to go through something every single day" can be a huge burden or a slight inconvenience, and I'd be much more interested to hear from women where on that spectrum picking work attire falls for them rather than assuming it reduces their quality of life to zero based on a dramatized quote. Again, not trying to discount your friend's experience and I sure as hell don't think men have exactly the same issue, it's just low on context.
  - adrianparsons 15y ago
    I completely agree. This thread is full of guys like me hypothesizing about what it's like to be a woman in the workplace. I'd love to hear more examples. I could be completely wrong.
kabuks 15y ago
Yeah stdbrouw, I think you missed the mark on this one. These things aren't even in the same ballpark. I imagine that being marked as 'hipster' has very different consequences for you than being marked as a 'slut' would have.

ryanwaggoner 15y ago

That does sound like a pain in the ass, but surely the problem is that the range is too narrow, not that there is a range in the first place. If a female coworker showed up at work one day in lingerie, is that really not supposed to mean anything and we're all supposed to go around like little asexual robots and completely ignore it? Ditto for the other end of the spectrum and for the male gender. Why do we have dress standards in the first place? Why not just wear a speedo to work if that's what you find comfortable?

neilk 15y ago
I agree that there is such a thing as dressing inappropriately. Let's further assume that they are doing so for the express purpose of attracting your attention. (In my experience, men are usually deluding themselves about how much women dress to seduce them, but whatever). The question is, how are you going to react to it? Because one person dresses inappropriately, do you have to react to it like a 14-year-old boy? Are you going to comment on it in a way that implies that women are there for your personal entertainment? Are you, by opening your mouth, going to encourage others to get even cruder? And what about all the other women you work with, or will potentially work with (who probably resent the woman who overdoes the cleavage too)? I understand that you feel that it's unrealistic to ban sexuality from the workplace. But it's not prudishness that is called for, but judgment. Consider that your actions take place in an existing context. In 2012, it doesn't take too many comments like that before your workplace or your open source project or whatever turns into a hostile space for women. Now, I've worked on volunteer projects with people who knew each other really well, and things are considerably looser with regards to sexual humor. The point is, you have to create an environment where women have a secure status. In the typical workplace, people barely know each other, and women are just barely holding onto whatever status they've earned. This probably means refraining from the more puerile jokes and observations. P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I've failed at this sometimes myself. I had a colleague who was a great programmer, but I was distracted by her body. She wore shapeless t-shirts covered in shapeless hoodies most of the time, in part, I'm sure, to hide this. But more's the pity that she basically has to dress in a tent in order to have her colleagues look her in the eye.

einhverfr 15y ago

So, what is the solution? Work uniforms for everyone? But more to the point, doesn't this suggest a desire on one hand to seem cute, feminine, and romantically attractive, but not to get too much attention? If this is the case, then are there bright lines at all in this area?