3 ms·

I really don't like these kinds of headlines. The medical professionals are the real heros here. If the da Vinci system had just come out and this was some ne

I really don't like these kinds of headlines. The medical professionals are the real heros here. If the da Vinci system had just come out and this was some new capability I would understand. In this case the headline should say "surgical staff saves life of inoperable patient using standard surgical quality of care and using device that has been available on the.market for 15 years". It's one thing to say "new Invention of the automobile saves life of first ambulance passenger" and another to say, today, the same thing.

vasco 3y ago
The hero talk is really cringy. Other than that, it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us to find it barbaric that we used to expose ourselves to factors like "trembling hands" or other such nonsense inside our guts.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons you want a surgeon in the loop. There are lots if things that robots can do better too (like your tremor example). The key, like many things, is in the shade of grey in between, not the extreme arguments on both sides. I stand by calling that surgical staff heros, and also think that the future of (good) surgery lies in the combination of skilled medical professional and machine, not the replacement of skilled professionals by machines. Disclaimer: I work in this space
  - BrandoElFollito 3y ago
    > so let's make autonomous killing robots. I think that this is not ethics or something that stops us from doing that, but rather the poor state of robotics. The second we can, we will have autonomous killing robots à la Terminator (but better because they are not really optimal by looking like us)
    - satvikpendem 3y ago
      I agree. Ethics haven't stopped weapons manufacturers from making increasingly deadly weapons, so I doubt it'd stop when the tech for killer robots is possible.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
        Yes they have (source - Geneva Convention and our subsequent following of it)
        BrandoElFollito 3y ago
        I am not sure who "our" is - but not the US, nor Europe, nor Africa, nor Asia , nor Russia (broadly speaking about bigger wars countries were in). It is always an afterthought and depending on who wins, the horrors of war that fall outside the "that's ok" category are either completely ignored, or someone is waving a finger, or there is a trial which finishes or not with actual punishments.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        Exactly. If the US breaks the Geneva Convention, will any other country be able to do anything? In war, might makes right. This has always been true throughout human history.
        IndySun 3y ago
        "In war, might makes right". Let's hope humans (predominantly old, white, men in this case) will eventually move away from banal, devoid of humanity, hackneyed maxims.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        I highly doubt we will, if we haven't already in the last hundred thousand years.
  - vasco 3y ago
    They aren't heroes in my opinion. A doctor would have a hero moment if they were in the middle of their regular life and someone has a piano fall on their head and they perform some MacGyver-esque surgery and save their lives. If you clock in at your schedule time, go through your motions, clock out, what you're doing isn't heroing, you're doing your job. This isn't any sort of attack whatsoever on the profession, I have lots of respect for them, but I know plenty of surgeons and they'd all cringe at this hero talk.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      From what I've gathered, this was no ordinary day in the OR. Based on my experience with complex, unusual and otherwise difficult surgical procedures, your piano MacGyver situation isn't far off from what's going on in the OR in these kinds of cases. This was no run of the mill lap choli or gall bladder removal.
- Incipient 3y ago
  Maybe "hero" is over the top, but "star of the show" would be appropriate. And I'm sure we'll get to autonomous surgery at some stage, but we can't even get autonomous driving right, and I feel like surgery is even more precise and potentially dynamic.
- appplication 3y ago
  > it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us We’re realistically (many) decades away from this in the earliest case. AI is cool, but literally giving one a scalpel and allowing it to excise a tumor is so far beyond both what our present technology and regulatory safeguards will realistically facilitate within most of the lifetime of anyone alive. I do admire your optimism, but I can’t help but think it’s a little misplaced. We have collectively billions of miles driven for self-driving cars and they still can’t reliably distinguish a red light in suboptimal conditions. And somehow a machine is going to slice us open and perform a surgery than even our most skilled surgeons are not reliably performing (let alone generating training data for). Not to mention the human body is an insanely complex, variable, and messy environment where even little mistakes can be life ending. I understand that exponential growth in AI is difficult to comprehend. But fully autonomous surgery is just likely not on the bingo sheet for this century. It’s several orders of magnitude more complex and high stakes than just about every other task AI can take on.

vasco 3y ago

The hero talk is really cringy. Other than that, it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us to find it barbaric that we used to expose ourselves to factors like "trembling hands" or other such nonsense inside our guts.

iancmceachern 3y ago
I think someone going above and beyond to literally save another's life, despite incredible odds, is the definition of a hero. What's cringe about that? There are two sides to this coin. It's the classic do we want to keep a human in the loop, or not. By your same point we could argue that robots are more efficient killing machines, so let's make autonomous killing robots. Back to surgery, there are lots of reasons you want a surgeon in the loop. There are lots if things that robots can do better too (like your tremor example). The key, like many things, is in the shade of grey in between, not the extreme arguments on both sides. I stand by calling that surgical staff heros, and also think that the future of (good) surgery lies in the combination of skilled medical professional and machine, not the replacement of skilled professionals by machines. Disclaimer: I work in this space
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  > so let's make autonomous killing robots. I think that this is not ethics or something that stops us from doing that, but rather the poor state of robotics. The second we can, we will have autonomous killing robots à la Terminator (but better because they are not really optimal by looking like us)
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    I agree. Ethics haven't stopped weapons manufacturers from making increasingly deadly weapons, so I doubt it'd stop when the tech for killer robots is possible.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      Yes they have (source - Geneva Convention and our subsequent following of it)
      - BrandoElFollito 3y ago
        I am not sure who "our" is - but not the US, nor Europe, nor Africa, nor Asia , nor Russia (broadly speaking about bigger wars countries were in). It is always an afterthought and depending on who wins, the horrors of war that fall outside the "that's ok" category are either completely ignored, or someone is waving a finger, or there is a trial which finishes or not with actual punishments.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        Exactly. If the US breaks the Geneva Convention, will any other country be able to do anything? In war, might makes right. This has always been true throughout human history.
        IndySun 3y ago
        "In war, might makes right". Let's hope humans (predominantly old, white, men in this case) will eventually move away from banal, devoid of humanity, hackneyed maxims.
        satvikpendem 3y ago
        I highly doubt we will, if we haven't already in the last hundred thousand years.
- vasco 3y ago
  They aren't heroes in my opinion. A doctor would have a hero moment if they were in the middle of their regular life and someone has a piano fall on their head and they perform some MacGyver-esque surgery and save their lives. If you clock in at your schedule time, go through your motions, clock out, what you're doing isn't heroing, you're doing your job. This isn't any sort of attack whatsoever on the profession, I have lots of respect for them, but I know plenty of surgeons and they'd all cringe at this hero talk.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    From what I've gathered, this was no ordinary day in the OR. Based on my experience with complex, unusual and otherwise difficult surgical procedures, your piano MacGyver situation isn't far off from what's going on in the OR in these kinds of cases. This was no run of the mill lap choli or gall bladder removal.
Incipient 3y ago
Maybe "hero" is over the top, but "star of the show" would be appropriate. And I'm sure we'll get to autonomous surgery at some stage, but we can't even get autonomous driving right, and I feel like surgery is even more precise and potentially dynamic.
appplication 3y ago
> it's not going to be long until we don't need anyone controlling it and for us We’re realistically (many) decades away from this in the earliest case. AI is cool, but literally giving one a scalpel and allowing it to excise a tumor is so far beyond both what our present technology and regulatory safeguards will realistically facilitate within most of the lifetime of anyone alive. I do admire your optimism, but I can’t help but think it’s a little misplaced. We have collectively billions of miles driven for self-driving cars and they still can’t reliably distinguish a red light in suboptimal conditions. And somehow a machine is going to slice us open and perform a surgery than even our most skilled surgeons are not reliably performing (let alone generating training data for). Not to mention the human body is an insanely complex, variable, and messy environment where even little mistakes can be life ending. I understand that exponential growth in AI is difficult to comprehend. But fully autonomous surgery is just likely not on the bingo sheet for this century. It’s several orders of magnitude more complex and high stakes than just about every other task AI can take on.