4 ms·

My feeling is that it would be better to tax them according to the problems they create. Scooter left on the sidewalk? Charge the operating company with a tick

by mg 3y ago

My feeling is that it would be better to tax them according to the problems they create. Scooter left on the sidewalk? Charge the operating company with a ticket. So they will charge their customer. Scooter driving in an illegal manner? Charge the driver and the company. This way, scooters would be operated in a manner that is good for everybody. They are a very effecive way to get around in a city. Are used much more than personally owned cars and bikes, so less parking time / occupied space. They take up way less space while driving and parking. Make no noise. And emmit no air pollution. It is similar to banning light bulbs vs introducing a carbon tax. Concrete laws like banning things are more popular. But taxing the problems they create is more effective.

sshine 3y ago
In Copenhagen, scooters can only park in designated areas. Unfortunately, those areas are so small that you can be stuck with a scooter that is impossible to return, because the GPS tracker doesn’t update fast or precise enough. And unfortunately, people still dump them on the side of the road if either they go out of their allowed area, or run out of juice. Considering you can rent a car at a lower rate per minute with less fuss, I think these scooter companies just have a hard time accepting sunk cost.
- twiceaday 3y ago
  Yet another business model that doesn't add up if you account for all negative externalities. Do you think the founders of these companies knew that before starting?
  - sshine 3y ago
    I think the cost of entering is sufficiently low to get convinced that “this time, it will be different”. There is a YouTuber who collects and dumps them in piles, and it seems like the scooter companies have sufficient anti-theft measures in place to justify that the risk of theft is low.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    The founders went away with a whole bunch of VC money. They knew perfectly well what they were doing, and that was not establishing a sustainable business.
  - houseatrielah 3y ago
    I'm sure there's a whole batch of companies that want to abuse the sidewalks. Robo-pizza delivery bot! Robo-package delivery bot! Mobile-advertising-bot! Paris will be perfectly fine with their world-class metro and world-famous urban environment.
Scarblac 3y ago
The chance of being caught would be far too low. Police have better things to do.
- mariusor 3y ago
  You don't punish the individual, you punish the company. Then the company can access logs and pass the cost to the customer that violated the rules.
  - bootlooped 3y ago
    I think it's too difficult to prove in most cases. Like if somebody is riding one on the sidewalk. I don't think GPS is exact enough to definitively say whether they were on the sidewalk on in the road 6 feet away, especially if there's tall buildings around to interfere with the signal.
    - mariusor 3y ago
      OK, let's limit to just scooters being left obstructing traffic of pedestrians/vehicles. A scooter parking violation if you will.
  - mpweiher 3y ago
    You still have to substantiate the accusation.
    - mariusor 3y ago
      The accusation is simple: the scooter is left in a place where it obstructs the passage of other vehicles/pedestrians. Pictures can be taken if need be, of course, but do you as a driver that receives a parking ticket require that the police provide proof that your car was where they said it was, or is it mostly based on trust?
mariusor 3y ago
> Charge the operating company with a ticket I agree, it seems like such a trivial solution to implement that I am baffled that no western city has done it. Laws against blocking pedestrian spaces surely exist already so they only need to be enforced. If car rental companies can designate parking spaces for their cars, surely scooters can too.
eyelidlessness 3y ago
> Scooter driving in an illegal manner? Charge the driver and the company. As someone who frequently has to dart myself and my puppy out of the way of these jerks—almost always on a narrow sidewalk beside a busy arterial—this kind of sounds nice. But I can’t imagine how it would work. Even if I could scramble fast enough to snap a picture while keeping pup safe, would it be actionable? As it is, on the rare occasion it’s just me out walking I’m content to play chicken with them and try to hold my ground. But I don’t take those chances with pup, and trying to get evidence (however useful) would involve the same risk.
- mg 3y ago
  dart myself and my puppy out of the way of these jerks Imagine what problems cars would cause if traffic regulations were not enforced. Look at all the infrastructure, rules, regulations and surveillance we maintain to make the use of these large, heavy, loud, air polluting vehicles possible. Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? snap a picture while keeping pup safe, would it be actionable? Since the scooters have license plates, it should be actionable. Additionally, the scooters have pretty precise GPS. Which would in the majority of cases support the accusation of driving on the sidewalk.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    > Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? What for? So that they can extract more money and let the rest of us deal with the externalities? This is the people telling those companies that they create too much hassle for what they contribute. People are still welcome to have their own lightweight, silent, clean vehicles. The various start-ups who came here were just too much of a pain for everyone.
  - eyelidlessness 3y ago
    > Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? It’s already possible. The effort you seem to be requesting is the effort I already described as dangerous to me and my pup. If I’m understanding correctly: that’s why. Because it’s dangerous to me and my pup. If I’m not understanding correctly, please feel free to clarify what effort you think I should be making to better accommodate these vehicles by which I wish not to be hit.
ryukoposting 3y ago
The problem with e-scooters isn't the scooters themselves, it's the reckless behavior they inspire in riders. Here's a device you don't own and aren't accountable for. For a couple bucks, it can go pretty fast, fit through narrow spaces, and there are no (enforcable) rules about where you can and can't ride it. Have fun! There are so many logistical barriers to creating systems for accountability with rental scooters. First of all, remember that crime (and law enforcement) is an economy, and the fines have to be large and frequent enough to result in positive cashflow into the city. Otherwise, there is no incentive to enforce the rules. Now consider what a city would have to do to enforce the rules you suggested. The city will either need to 1) force the e-scooter companies to provide their data to law enforcement, 2) require the e-scooter companies to self-report misbehavior and pay the corresponding fines, 3) rely on citizens to report misbehavior. Among the litany of reasons why (3) doesn't work is because it relies almost entirely on circumstantial evidence. (2) is laughable because the scooter companies have no incentive to self-report, and an audit would be hideously expensive for the city government. (1) doesn't work under US law because the police would need a warrant, or a legal hellstorm would ensue. Bicycles also make no noise and emit no air pollution. They can also be electrically-powered, they are safer for the rider, and are limited by the laws of physics to safer, less erratic driving. They're faster and harder to steal. They're categorically better than e-scooters in every way except size, and as I said, even their size can be considered a strength. Rental e-scooters were a fun experiment, and I will definitely tell my kids all kinds of stories about the stupid things I saw people do with them. If my city bans them, I will be pleased.
kaba0 3y ago
Budapest has a quite great bike rent network, you can pretty much get from any of its station to any other in at most 30 minutes, sometimes faster than with car or public transport! The city also made quite a few changes in the last few years, sometimes giving whole car lanes to bikes, and all that for a monthly 3 euros or so price. I would much prefer a centralized solution like this over the ad hoc, leave everywhere scooter one. Bikes can also be misused, but have a better, existing culture/understanding, and are much more safer for the drivers (scooters have very low central mass and a small hole can cause really bad accidents).
kadomony 3y ago
Nope. Ban them.

by mg 3y ago

sshine 3y ago

In Copenhagen, scooters can only park in designated areas. Unfortunately, those areas are so small that you can be stuck with a scooter that is impossible to return, because the GPS tracker doesn’t update fast or precise enough. And unfortunately, people still dump them on the side of the road if either they go out of their allowed area, or run out of juice. Considering you can rent a car at a lower rate per minute with less fuss, I think these scooter companies just have a hard time accepting sunk cost.

twiceaday 3y ago
Yet another business model that doesn't add up if you account for all negative externalities. Do you think the founders of these companies knew that before starting?
- sshine 3y ago
  I think the cost of entering is sufficiently low to get convinced that “this time, it will be different”. There is a YouTuber who collects and dumps them in piles, and it seems like the scooter companies have sufficient anti-theft measures in place to justify that the risk of theft is low.
- kergonath 3y ago
  The founders went away with a whole bunch of VC money. They knew perfectly well what they were doing, and that was not establishing a sustainable business.
- houseatrielah 3y ago
  I'm sure there's a whole batch of companies that want to abuse the sidewalks. Robo-pizza delivery bot! Robo-package delivery bot! Mobile-advertising-bot! Paris will be perfectly fine with their world-class metro and world-famous urban environment.

Scarblac 3y ago

The chance of being caught would be far too low. Police have better things to do.

mariusor 3y ago
You don't punish the individual, you punish the company. Then the company can access logs and pass the cost to the customer that violated the rules.
- bootlooped 3y ago
  I think it's too difficult to prove in most cases. Like if somebody is riding one on the sidewalk. I don't think GPS is exact enough to definitively say whether they were on the sidewalk on in the road 6 feet away, especially if there's tall buildings around to interfere with the signal.
  - mariusor 3y ago
    OK, let's limit to just scooters being left obstructing traffic of pedestrians/vehicles. A scooter parking violation if you will.
- mpweiher 3y ago
  You still have to substantiate the accusation.
  - mariusor 3y ago
    The accusation is simple: the scooter is left in a place where it obstructs the passage of other vehicles/pedestrians. Pictures can be taken if need be, of course, but do you as a driver that receives a parking ticket require that the police provide proof that your car was where they said it was, or is it mostly based on trust?

mariusor 3y ago

> Charge the operating company with a ticket I agree, it seems like such a trivial solution to implement that I am baffled that no western city has done it. Laws against blocking pedestrian spaces surely exist already so they only need to be enforced. If car rental companies can designate parking spaces for their cars, surely scooters can too.

eyelidlessness 3y ago

> Scooter driving in an illegal manner? Charge the driver and the company. As someone who frequently has to dart myself and my puppy out of the way of these jerks—almost always on a narrow sidewalk beside a busy arterial—this kind of sounds nice. But I can’t imagine how it would work. Even if I could scramble fast enough to snap a picture while keeping pup safe, would it be actionable? As it is, on the rare occasion it’s just me out walking I’m content to play chicken with them and try to hold my ground. But I don’t take those chances with pup, and trying to get evidence (however useful) would involve the same risk.

mg 3y ago
dart myself and my puppy out of the way of these jerks Imagine what problems cars would cause if traffic regulations were not enforced. Look at all the infrastructure, rules, regulations and surveillance we maintain to make the use of these large, heavy, loud, air polluting vehicles possible. Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? snap a picture while keeping pup safe, would it be actionable? Since the scooters have license plates, it should be actionable. Additionally, the scooters have pretty precise GPS. Which would in the majority of cases support the accusation of driving on the sidewalk.
- kergonath 3y ago
  > Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? What for? So that they can extract more money and let the rest of us deal with the externalities? This is the people telling those companies that they create too much hassle for what they contribute. People are still welcome to have their own lightweight, silent, clean vehicles. The various start-ups who came here were just too much of a pain for everyone.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
  > Why not put some effort into making the use of small, lightweight, silent, clean vehicles possible? It’s already possible. The effort you seem to be requesting is the effort I already described as dangerous to me and my pup. If I’m understanding correctly: that’s why. Because it’s dangerous to me and my pup. If I’m not understanding correctly, please feel free to clarify what effort you think I should be making to better accommodate these vehicles by which I wish not to be hit.

ryukoposting 3y ago

The problem with e-scooters isn't the scooters themselves, it's the reckless behavior they inspire in riders. Here's a device you don't own and aren't accountable for. For a couple bucks, it can go pretty fast, fit through narrow spaces, and there are no (enforcable) rules about where you can and can't ride it. Have fun! There are so many logistical barriers to creating systems for accountability with rental scooters. First of all, remember that crime (and law enforcement) is an economy, and the fines have to be large and frequent enough to result in positive cashflow into the city. Otherwise, there is no incentive to enforce the rules. Now consider what a city would have to do to enforce the rules you suggested. The city will either need to 1) force the e-scooter companies to provide their data to law enforcement, 2) require the e-scooter companies to self-report misbehavior and pay the corresponding fines, 3) rely on citizens to report misbehavior. Among the litany of reasons why (3) doesn't work is because it relies almost entirely on circumstantial evidence. (2) is laughable because the scooter companies have no incentive to self-report, and an audit would be hideously expensive for the city government. (1) doesn't work under US law because the police would need a warrant, or a legal hellstorm would ensue. Bicycles also make no noise and emit no air pollution. They can also be electrically-powered, they are safer for the rider, and are limited by the laws of physics to safer, less erratic driving. They're faster and harder to steal. They're categorically better than e-scooters in every way except size, and as I said, even their size can be considered a strength. Rental e-scooters were a fun experiment, and I will definitely tell my kids all kinds of stories about the stupid things I saw people do with them. If my city bans them, I will be pleased.

kaba0 3y ago

Budapest has a quite great bike rent network, you can pretty much get from any of its station to any other in at most 30 minutes, sometimes faster than with car or public transport! The city also made quite a few changes in the last few years, sometimes giving whole car lanes to bikes, and all that for a monthly 3 euros or so price. I would much prefer a centralized solution like this over the ad hoc, leave everywhere scooter one. Bikes can also be misused, but have a better, existing culture/understanding, and are much more safer for the drivers (scooters have very low central mass and a small hole can cause really bad accidents).

kadomony 3y ago

Nope. Ban them.