4 ms·

> As an industry we're surprisingly very behind in normalizing this. Given the fight we’ve seen over WFH, I’m very inclined to believe that this is intentional

> As an industry we're surprisingly very behind in normalizing this. Given the fight we’ve seen over WFH, I’m very inclined to believe that this is intentional by the industry. By focusing on paying top dollar for FTEs and demanding incredible amounts of time and energy from them, companies maintain a level of control that they wouldn’t have by working with a fractional engineering team.

manicennui 3y ago
I find it humorous that anyone thinks they are capable of forcing talented people to do more than they want. Most of the people who feel pressure to make their corporate masters as happy as possible are either desperate or barely competent. All one must do is appear to be slightly better than all of the dead weight in the corporate world. No need to work hard. * I wanted to add that I am referring to software developers. Creative types like the author of this article are always shit upon by corporate types unfortunately
- beezlewax 3y ago
  Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I feel I work harder than most people on my team. I always go for stories in areas that are more complex than the rest or areas that are new to me. I'm always trying to learn more to keep ahead of the rest. My performance reviews are always "exceeds expectations", but I haven't seen how this benefits anyone other than the company so far. Maybe I should just take it more easy but I feel like I'd float under the radar for possible promotion then.
  - singpolyma3 3y ago
    Every exceeds expectations review that does not come with cash (or at least stock) you need to ask why.
  - cultofmetatron 3y ago
    > Maybe I should just take it more easy but I feel like I'd float under the radar for possible promotion then. Few companies have sane compensation policies. by all means put in extra work when you have an opportunity to learn some new skill from it. but once you get to a pint where your skills are valuable, either jump ship to a another company that pays commisserate to your new skill level or start or join a startup where you get enough equity to eat at the adult's table when the ipo or acquisition happens
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Not to be discouraging, but promotions rarely go to top performers in the sense of what you're doing. They go to movers and shakers, folks with heavy soft skills who routinely interact with skip levels and the like. Their work output is marginal to the influence they command. Basically, you're most likely being taken advantage of and will never be properly rewarded for what you're doing, IME.
    - johndhi 3y ago
      This is true for me at work right now. Tips on how to reverse it?
      - lnsru 3y ago
        Look for other job. I spent almost decade shipping things, that just work. The managers didn’t heard my name often (because my deliverables always worked). At the end I was not visible enough for promotion despite working hard. Job change, few percent pay raise. Probably I will work now less hard.
    - sdiupIGPWEfh 3y ago
      Truth. Been learning this the hard way, myself. But what do you do when you've never been one with heavy soft skills? When schmoozing has never been natural or enjoyable? Is there really nothing more than either choosing to suck it up and accept your fate or else force yourself to be what you're not?
      - asoneth 3y ago
        One option is to study and practice soft skills like any other skill. I found this unpleasant but useful, and I would recommend at least trying it. Another is to find organizations that have individual contributor (IC) promotion tracks that are at least as lucrative as the management track. (Of the highest-paid, most respected people at my company, most of them are not in management and are simply really good at what they do.)
      - datavirtue 3y ago
  - manicennui 3y ago
    I think my employer is a bit unique. They don't have a lot of the problems that other companies have with long hours and asshole managers. I've gotten great reviews and bonuses for years and I've been promoted a number of times. Most of my value is in just making decisions for a bunch of indecisive people and having a deeper understanding of most things. They have pretty high turnover because no one cares about what the company does (lending), they aren't the highest paying employer for average employees, and the work isn't exciting. They put a lot more effort into retaining a small number of us.
  - abduhl 3y ago
    How many employees does your company have? Less than 50, ok maybe push the limit but honestly if it’s more than 25 people across the company your ability to get recognized is hamstrung by bureaucracy. Anything more than 25 people should honestly be met by “just good enough to be better than the other guys” and the realization that tenure and political pull, not talent, is rewarded. If you want to stand out then you need to go somewhere that you can.
  - jokethrowaway 3y ago
    Put that energy in side hustles / side projects, my friend. Or threaten to leave and get a real raise
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    Do you enjoy the work and feel fairly compensated? If so, carry on. Who cares what others are doing?
  - lmm 3y ago
    How much real progress have you made towards that promotion? And do you even want the position you'd have if you got promoted? Honestly it does sound like you're doing it wrong. If you want to get paid more there are more effective ways of doing that. If you enjoy tough tasks that's fine, but be honest with yourself and make sure you're doing it because you want to.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  > * I wanted to add that I am referring to software developers. Creative types like the author of this article are always shit upon by corporate types unfortunately Ish. It's complicated. IME, most folks have a low standard for "good" and don't differentiate well above a certain minimum. Someone with an MFA and 150k in debt may expect to get paid more than someone with no degree and no school debt, but that doesn't mean the buyer will rate the MFA higher -- which means they won't pay them more money. The MFA may also expect to spend X hours on a project without _explaining that_ to the buyer. That's not corporate types being stingy or such, it's a mismatch of expectations. At the end of the day, buyers value the work much lower than the sellers, so the sellers are going to be disappointed far more often.
joenot443 3y ago
> Given the fight we’ve seen over WFH, I’m very inclined to believe that this is intentional by the industry Doesn't this require a level of coordination between hirers that almost certainly doesn't exist? I see these takes all the time about how "the industry" cabal coordinates to screw over workers. Never have I seen any meeting notes or interviews from former CEOs on how this coordination might happen, just disgruntled employees feeling they deserve more.
- htormey 3y ago
  Personally I don’t believe theirs a conspiracy regarding this but just to play devils advocate. Clearly, the heads of HR and other people who define corporate compensation talk to one another, “hey what are you guys doing to manage pay cuts, reductions in staff, etc in this economy at company x/y/z”. It’s a pretty obvious benefit of having a strong professional network. I.e you have people you can ask for mentorship and advise. Every startup board was asking companies to belt tighten and reduce costs because of the economy earlier this year and last year. A relatively small number of companies and startups in tech define top of market for compensation. Clearly the people at those companies know one another and talk about what they are doing.
- moregrist 3y ago
  > Doesn't this require a level of coordination between hirers that almost certainly doesn't exist? Except when it does. Remember when most of big tech had secret no-poach agreements to keep the wages of engineers down [1]? It wasn’t that long ago. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

manicennui 3y ago

I find it humorous that anyone thinks they are capable of forcing talented people to do more than they want. Most of the people who feel pressure to make their corporate masters as happy as possible are either desperate or barely competent. All one must do is appear to be slightly better than all of the dead weight in the corporate world. No need to work hard. * I wanted to add that I am referring to software developers. Creative types like the author of this article are always shit upon by corporate types unfortunately

beezlewax 3y ago
Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I feel I work harder than most people on my team. I always go for stories in areas that are more complex than the rest or areas that are new to me. I'm always trying to learn more to keep ahead of the rest. My performance reviews are always "exceeds expectations", but I haven't seen how this benefits anyone other than the company so far. Maybe I should just take it more easy but I feel like I'd float under the radar for possible promotion then.
- singpolyma3 3y ago
  Every exceeds expectations review that does not come with cash (or at least stock) you need to ask why.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  > Maybe I should just take it more easy but I feel like I'd float under the radar for possible promotion then. Few companies have sane compensation policies. by all means put in extra work when you have an opportunity to learn some new skill from it. but once you get to a pint where your skills are valuable, either jump ship to a another company that pays commisserate to your new skill level or start or join a startup where you get enough equity to eat at the adult's table when the ipo or acquisition happens
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Not to be discouraging, but promotions rarely go to top performers in the sense of what you're doing. They go to movers and shakers, folks with heavy soft skills who routinely interact with skip levels and the like. Their work output is marginal to the influence they command. Basically, you're most likely being taken advantage of and will never be properly rewarded for what you're doing, IME.
  - johndhi 3y ago
    This is true for me at work right now. Tips on how to reverse it?
    - lnsru 3y ago
      Look for other job. I spent almost decade shipping things, that just work. The managers didn’t heard my name often (because my deliverables always worked). At the end I was not visible enough for promotion despite working hard. Job change, few percent pay raise. Probably I will work now less hard.
  - sdiupIGPWEfh 3y ago
    Truth. Been learning this the hard way, myself. But what do you do when you've never been one with heavy soft skills? When schmoozing has never been natural or enjoyable? Is there really nothing more than either choosing to suck it up and accept your fate or else force yourself to be what you're not?
    - asoneth 3y ago
      One option is to study and practice soft skills like any other skill. I found this unpleasant but useful, and I would recommend at least trying it. Another is to find organizations that have individual contributor (IC) promotion tracks that are at least as lucrative as the management track. (Of the highest-paid, most respected people at my company, most of them are not in management and are simply really good at what they do.)
    - datavirtue 3y ago
- manicennui 3y ago
  I think my employer is a bit unique. They don't have a lot of the problems that other companies have with long hours and asshole managers. I've gotten great reviews and bonuses for years and I've been promoted a number of times. Most of my value is in just making decisions for a bunch of indecisive people and having a deeper understanding of most things. They have pretty high turnover because no one cares about what the company does (lending), they aren't the highest paying employer for average employees, and the work isn't exciting. They put a lot more effort into retaining a small number of us.
- abduhl 3y ago
  How many employees does your company have? Less than 50, ok maybe push the limit but honestly if it’s more than 25 people across the company your ability to get recognized is hamstrung by bureaucracy. Anything more than 25 people should honestly be met by “just good enough to be better than the other guys” and the realization that tenure and political pull, not talent, is rewarded. If you want to stand out then you need to go somewhere that you can.
- jokethrowaway 3y ago
  Put that energy in side hustles / side projects, my friend. Or threaten to leave and get a real raise
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  Do you enjoy the work and feel fairly compensated? If so, carry on. Who cares what others are doing?
- lmm 3y ago
  How much real progress have you made towards that promotion? And do you even want the position you'd have if you got promoted? Honestly it does sound like you're doing it wrong. If you want to get paid more there are more effective ways of doing that. If you enjoy tough tasks that's fine, but be honest with yourself and make sure you're doing it because you want to.
brightlancer 3y ago
> * I wanted to add that I am referring to software developers. Creative types like the author of this article are always shit upon by corporate types unfortunately Ish. It's complicated. IME, most folks have a low standard for "good" and don't differentiate well above a certain minimum. Someone with an MFA and 150k in debt may expect to get paid more than someone with no degree and no school debt, but that doesn't mean the buyer will rate the MFA higher -- which means they won't pay them more money. The MFA may also expect to spend X hours on a project without _explaining that_ to the buyer. That's not corporate types being stingy or such, it's a mismatch of expectations. At the end of the day, buyers value the work much lower than the sellers, so the sellers are going to be disappointed far more often.

joenot443 3y ago

> Given the fight we’ve seen over WFH, I’m very inclined to believe that this is intentional by the industry Doesn't this require a level of coordination between hirers that almost certainly doesn't exist? I see these takes all the time about how "the industry" cabal coordinates to screw over workers. Never have I seen any meeting notes or interviews from former CEOs on how this coordination might happen, just disgruntled employees feeling they deserve more.

htormey 3y ago
Personally I don’t believe theirs a conspiracy regarding this but just to play devils advocate. Clearly, the heads of HR and other people who define corporate compensation talk to one another, “hey what are you guys doing to manage pay cuts, reductions in staff, etc in this economy at company x/y/z”. It’s a pretty obvious benefit of having a strong professional network. I.e you have people you can ask for mentorship and advise. Every startup board was asking companies to belt tighten and reduce costs because of the economy earlier this year and last year. A relatively small number of companies and startups in tech define top of market for compensation. Clearly the people at those companies know one another and talk about what they are doing.
moregrist 3y ago
> Doesn't this require a level of coordination between hirers that almost certainly doesn't exist? Except when it does. Remember when most of big tech had secret no-poach agreements to keep the wages of engineers down [1]? It wasn’t that long ago. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...