5 ms·

There is hope: - 20 years ago it was impossible to buy a PC, especially a laptop, without MS Windows : today there are several suppliers: System76, LaptopWithL

by Daril 3y ago

There is hope: - 20 years ago it was impossible to buy a PC, especially a laptop, without MS Windows : today there are several suppliers: System76, LaptopWithLinux, TuxedoComputers, to name but a few. - It is only in the last few years (less than 10) that Linux is perfectly usable on the desktop, so I don't care what decision MS will take for Windows, it is irrelevant if you have other options. For office suites we have: LibreOffice, OnlyOffice, FreeOffice - FreeBSD has come a long way as a desktop too,in the long run will be usable as Linux - There are now many alternatives (free or paid) to all the Google services. What Google decides to do with its own services is irrelevant to me, there are alternatives: ProtonMail, Tutanota, Infomaniak, OpenStreetmap, MagicEarth, OrganicMaps, ... - There are several open source alternatives to Google Android, solid, complete and usable: Iodè, e/OS, to name a few, and we already have an open source app store: F-Droid. - Linux is also making huge improvements on mobile phones (see PinePhone). It will take a few years, but I'm sure we'll have a viable alternative to Android in the near future. - There are many messaging apps and protocols that are decentralised and resistant to censorship. What is really in danger, in my opinion, is net neutrality and the clamps that Google and other big tech companies and governments will try to impose, but in the recent years we have seen a rise of decentralised protocols and services. My humble suggestions: - don't use the services of the big tech companies : look for and use only open source alternatives, if possible - use an open source version of Android on your phone, without the Google services - prefer decentralised solutions whenever possible

LesZedCB 3y ago
just like living the hermit life, leaving all of these services behind is surprisingly alienating. I say this as somebody who has done several of these and is trying to continue to expand. but damn, the is a lot of stuff that you miss out on and I'm starting to be squeezed by the losses to move back. I guess I'm saying, even though I feel driven by a massive moral imperative to engage with technology in that fashion, I find it absurdly difficult to the point of failure. I'm not ready to be a hermit.
- salawat 3y ago
  Just rebuild what you're missing, and share. In the journey to do so you will discover some of the most interesting primitives out there, and everyone gains, instead of a few unrepentant Gatekeepers.
  - LesZedCB 3y ago
    i would prefer not to
    - vinceguidry 3y ago
      You can, of course, pick your level of engagement, and make adjustments over time. An Android phone can provide all the engagement you need, and there are lots of distributions that focus on providing different experience. I'm using a stock Android phone and Linux everywhere else. My current phone isn't rootable, (I bought it to replace a lost iPhone and didn't have time to do research) so I'm stuck with stock, but my next phone will be. I'm still way happier on Android than I ever was on iOS. If you really want to have your foot in both worlds, you can always live the two-phone lifestyle. Might go that way myself eventually.
      - LesZedCB 3y ago
        I've been happily living on android for maybe 5 years now after iOS for maybe 10 before that. I don't really miss it at all, but the tier system is hard to ignore. besides the infamous "green text" phenomenon, iOS tends to get the apps for applications that only support one, or in my car, android auto only takes up the top half of the screen whereas car play uses the full display. and of course, the software ecosystem for the Subaru infotainment is completely proprietary and non-user-serviceable so I can do nothing about it. but that's just how it is, choosing free, ethical software is choosing a life of austerity and alienation.
        vinceguidry 3y ago
        Alienation I can see, but austerity? One of the things I plan on doing is building custom UIs for all the apps I usually use. Termux on stock Android is hobbled by unremappable key bindings that make using the Super key almost impossible, but when I can finally actually control the computer I carry around in my pocket all day, a blank canvas I can mold and shape is infinitely better. I bet your Subaru is probably hackable, all these things run Linux under the hood, wouldn't be surprised if there were already a group of people on Reddit that have already done it. Lonely, this lifestyle does not have to be.
nwellinghoff 3y ago
Would be nice to have a Linux phone where one could run ios and google android in a vm. Same way I run my computer. Level 1 hypervisor and all flavors on top. Max control, max options, max nerd.
- phs 3y ago
  postmarketOS and waydroid are almost there, though I still went back to lineage. No answers for iOS.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  Oh, do you mind elaborating on this? I’m looking for a way to organise my PC with similar approach. I thought of minimal Arch Linux installation as a host, and macOS (or Windows for very special cases) on top, when I need those GUI apps that aren’t present in Linux. I see no need to keep Linux apps in a VM.
  - nwellinghoff 3y ago
    Proxmox with gpu pass through can do windows, macos and the various linux platforms with very little performance loss.
rocho 3y ago
The options might exist, but that doesn't mean that they are viable/usable. I agree with many of your points, but regarding document processing, LibreOffice really does not compare with any of the best alternatives (Google Documents, Office Word). It lacks options, if the options exists they are hidden in obscure menus, it doesn't display many things correctly (at least on my Linux computer), etc. For document processing, I'm still stuck on Google Docs, which is quite a sad state of affairs.
- Eduard 3y ago
  I prefer LibreOffice so much more over Microsoft Word and Google Documents. yes, with LibreOffice, often options are hidden somewhere that I wish there was just an autocomplete box to type in what I'm looking for (e. g. "Page numbering", "page break l"); BUT: finding those options in Word is complicated as well, and on top of it it reshuffles with every new version
Jenda_ 3y ago
Thank you for most of the points, it's easy to miss the good parts of development of the recent years. I don't however agree with this one: "It will take a few years, but I'm sure we'll have a viable alternative to Android in the near future." I think many essential apps (such as banking, or "less essential" such as for bike- and car-sharing) will start requiring device attestation as soon as even low-end Android phones start shipping with hardware TPM.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  Oh, I have a nice contribution to your comment! I use some taxi apps (very infrequently), and sometimes I need to call it for someone else, not in my current location. Sometimes there is a promotion catch with, say, 20% discount. Which is applicable only for a personal ride (e.g. from your location), but if you ask a taxi to bring someone to you (e.g. from other location to your location), well, then sorry, not applicable. I used to trick the app but faking my location on my Android with gps-fake app (don’t remember the name, mine was from f-droid). I bet taxi services are not happy about that kind of a customer. Giving it some thought: still a returning customer. Sometimes it’s not just the money thing for me, but the challenge of whether the algorithm could be tricked.
- Daril 3y ago
  Yes, I agree that this will be the critical point, but ... it all depends on the critical mass of users. About 20 years ago there was no CAD software for Linux, no IDE for rapid development and now we have tons of incredible tools in all areas: FreeCad, Blender, Lazarus, KDevelop, QT Creator. JetBrains produces incredible cross-platform development tools. The same revolution that happened on the desktop can happen on mobile. The people at Pine64 are creating incredible and affordable devices, and this is just the beginning. The open source revolution is spreading from software to hardware (Risc-V processors for example). In my lifetime I have seen Linux and open source software in general make incredible progress. And it is not only a technical aspect, but also a different way of living and seeing the world: hundreds of thousands of developers working together for the benefit of the most, beyond any language, geographical or political boundaries. It also depends on the choices that each of us will make to stop supporting and encouraging predatory and monopolistic regimes, and instead make choices to preserve our freedoms as individuals, which are more important than the last "nice features" in expensive and proprietary gadgets that imprison us and our data in closed kingdoms.
walteweiss 3y ago
Can anyone elaborate on Free Office? I checked, it was first submitted to AUR in 2013, but it’s the very first time I hear the brand. I use Libre Office and I tried OnlyOffice as well. Of course I know Open Office, which Libree Office was, once upon a time. But I never seen in any shape of form Free Office. I couldn’t find even Wikipedia article about them. Their website looks dull to me. What is it all about? Me, I’m looking for a way to fool people that claim they need Windows when they need browser and Office by installing Linux (possibly with some similar looking shell) and some Office suite that looks very similar. Is Free Office that thing?
- Daril 3y ago
  FreeOffice exists since many years. It is free for personal use. It is a light and complete office suite. It is a good alternative to LibreOffice, also if not so rich in features.
  - walteweiss 3y ago
    Just tried to install it from AUR, and it didn’t run on my Arch Linux system. `$ freeoffice-textmaker` Critical System Error: Unable to open X Window display. <:0> I assume it doesn’t support Wayland. And I don’t support X, I don’t use it and if an app doesn’t work on Wayland, I won’t use it. May be useful for someone else, who doesn’t tolerate Wayland being unsupported.
jamaicahest 3y ago
> - use an open source version of Android on your phone, without the Google services Having tried this many times over the last 10 years, I have never encountered a stable, non-vendor Android distribution for any of my phones. Oh there are always multiple available Android images for most popular phones, however in my experience they are always unstable in ways that make them too much of a hassle to use. I have experienced bluetooth suddenly disconnecting from my headset and refusign to reconnect until i reboot the phone, WiFi drops connection and needs a phone reboot, unable to make phone calls or receive SMS until I reboot the phone, phone randomly reboots without any interaction. These are primary uses for my phone and if the primary functionality of the Android image is broken, I do not want to use it.
- diego_sandoval 3y ago
  In the phone ecosystem, you have to choose the OS you want, and then buy a phone that is compatible with that OS. If you buy a random phone and then try to find a compatible OS, your options will be very limited, or null. GrapheneOS is, in my opinion, the most mature, serious, and reliable phone operating system, so I bought myself a Google Pixel specifically so that I could install GrapheneOS on it.
account42 3y ago
> 20 years ago it was impossible to buy a PC, especially a laptop, without MS Windows : today there are several suppliers: System76, LaptopWithLinux, TuxedoComputers, to name but a few. Buying components and assembling them yourself has always been an option for desktops (and IMO the best one). For laptops, I bought a Dell with Linux ~15 years ago - not quite 20 but close enough. > It is only in the last few years (less than 10) that Linux is perfectly usable on the desktop, so I don't care what decision MS will take for Windows, it is irrelevant if you have other options. For office suites we have: LibreOffice, OnlyOffice, FreeOffice Linux has been a perfectly usable desktop OS for a long time. I know because I have been using it for well over 10 years and have not missed the sorry excuse for a OS that is Windows. If anything, there are certain actors trying to lock down Linux to build their own walled garden. Of course being open source makes this harder but they do try and with hardware-backed crypto requirements may eventually succeed - source won't help you if whatever you build with it won't match the whitelisted checksums. > There are many messaging apps and protocols that are decentralised and resistant to censorship. Which is an improvement on a single Gaim/Pidgin being able to connect to all networks you can think of? We hardly need more messaging protocols and apps.

by Daril 3y ago

LesZedCB 3y ago

just like living the hermit life, leaving all of these services behind is surprisingly alienating. I say this as somebody who has done several of these and is trying to continue to expand. but damn, the is a lot of stuff that you miss out on and I'm starting to be squeezed by the losses to move back. I guess I'm saying, even though I feel driven by a massive moral imperative to engage with technology in that fashion, I find it absurdly difficult to the point of failure. I'm not ready to be a hermit.

salawat 3y ago
Just rebuild what you're missing, and share. In the journey to do so you will discover some of the most interesting primitives out there, and everyone gains, instead of a few unrepentant Gatekeepers.
- LesZedCB 3y ago
  i would prefer not to
  - vinceguidry 3y ago
    You can, of course, pick your level of engagement, and make adjustments over time. An Android phone can provide all the engagement you need, and there are lots of distributions that focus on providing different experience. I'm using a stock Android phone and Linux everywhere else. My current phone isn't rootable, (I bought it to replace a lost iPhone and didn't have time to do research) so I'm stuck with stock, but my next phone will be. I'm still way happier on Android than I ever was on iOS. If you really want to have your foot in both worlds, you can always live the two-phone lifestyle. Might go that way myself eventually.
    - LesZedCB 3y ago
      I've been happily living on android for maybe 5 years now after iOS for maybe 10 before that. I don't really miss it at all, but the tier system is hard to ignore. besides the infamous "green text" phenomenon, iOS tends to get the apps for applications that only support one, or in my car, android auto only takes up the top half of the screen whereas car play uses the full display. and of course, the software ecosystem for the Subaru infotainment is completely proprietary and non-user-serviceable so I can do nothing about it. but that's just how it is, choosing free, ethical software is choosing a life of austerity and alienation.
      - vinceguidry 3y ago
        Alienation I can see, but austerity? One of the things I plan on doing is building custom UIs for all the apps I usually use. Termux on stock Android is hobbled by unremappable key bindings that make using the Super key almost impossible, but when I can finally actually control the computer I carry around in my pocket all day, a blank canvas I can mold and shape is infinitely better. I bet your Subaru is probably hackable, all these things run Linux under the hood, wouldn't be surprised if there were already a group of people on Reddit that have already done it. Lonely, this lifestyle does not have to be.

nwellinghoff 3y ago

Would be nice to have a Linux phone where one could run ios and google android in a vm. Same way I run my computer. Level 1 hypervisor and all flavors on top. Max control, max options, max nerd.

phs 3y ago
postmarketOS and waydroid are almost there, though I still went back to lineage. No answers for iOS.
walteweiss 3y ago
Oh, do you mind elaborating on this? I’m looking for a way to organise my PC with similar approach. I thought of minimal Arch Linux installation as a host, and macOS (or Windows for very special cases) on top, when I need those GUI apps that aren’t present in Linux. I see no need to keep Linux apps in a VM.
- nwellinghoff 3y ago
  Proxmox with gpu pass through can do windows, macos and the various linux platforms with very little performance loss.

rocho 3y ago

The options might exist, but that doesn't mean that they are viable/usable. I agree with many of your points, but regarding document processing, LibreOffice really does not compare with any of the best alternatives (Google Documents, Office Word). It lacks options, if the options exists they are hidden in obscure menus, it doesn't display many things correctly (at least on my Linux computer), etc. For document processing, I'm still stuck on Google Docs, which is quite a sad state of affairs.

Eduard 3y ago
I prefer LibreOffice so much more over Microsoft Word and Google Documents. yes, with LibreOffice, often options are hidden somewhere that I wish there was just an autocomplete box to type in what I'm looking for (e. g. "Page numbering", "page break l"); BUT: finding those options in Word is complicated as well, and on top of it it reshuffles with every new version

Jenda_ 3y ago

Thank you for most of the points, it's easy to miss the good parts of development of the recent years. I don't however agree with this one: "It will take a few years, but I'm sure we'll have a viable alternative to Android in the near future." I think many essential apps (such as banking, or "less essential" such as for bike- and car-sharing) will start requiring device attestation as soon as even low-end Android phones start shipping with hardware TPM.

walteweiss 3y ago
Oh, I have a nice contribution to your comment! I use some taxi apps (very infrequently), and sometimes I need to call it for someone else, not in my current location. Sometimes there is a promotion catch with, say, 20% discount. Which is applicable only for a personal ride (e.g. from your location), but if you ask a taxi to bring someone to you (e.g. from other location to your location), well, then sorry, not applicable. I used to trick the app but faking my location on my Android with gps-fake app (don’t remember the name, mine was from f-droid). I bet taxi services are not happy about that kind of a customer. Giving it some thought: still a returning customer. Sometimes it’s not just the money thing for me, but the challenge of whether the algorithm could be tricked.
Daril 3y ago
Yes, I agree that this will be the critical point, but ... it all depends on the critical mass of users. About 20 years ago there was no CAD software for Linux, no IDE for rapid development and now we have tons of incredible tools in all areas: FreeCad, Blender, Lazarus, KDevelop, QT Creator. JetBrains produces incredible cross-platform development tools. The same revolution that happened on the desktop can happen on mobile. The people at Pine64 are creating incredible and affordable devices, and this is just the beginning. The open source revolution is spreading from software to hardware (Risc-V processors for example). In my lifetime I have seen Linux and open source software in general make incredible progress. And it is not only a technical aspect, but also a different way of living and seeing the world: hundreds of thousands of developers working together for the benefit of the most, beyond any language, geographical or political boundaries. It also depends on the choices that each of us will make to stop supporting and encouraging predatory and monopolistic regimes, and instead make choices to preserve our freedoms as individuals, which are more important than the last "nice features" in expensive and proprietary gadgets that imprison us and our data in closed kingdoms.

walteweiss 3y ago

Can anyone elaborate on Free Office? I checked, it was first submitted to AUR in 2013, but it’s the very first time I hear the brand. I use Libre Office and I tried OnlyOffice as well. Of course I know Open Office, which Libree Office was, once upon a time. But I never seen in any shape of form Free Office. I couldn’t find even Wikipedia article about them. Their website looks dull to me. What is it all about? Me, I’m looking for a way to fool people that claim they need Windows when they need browser and Office by installing Linux (possibly with some similar looking shell) and some Office suite that looks very similar. Is Free Office that thing?

Daril 3y ago
FreeOffice exists since many years. It is free for personal use. It is a light and complete office suite. It is a good alternative to LibreOffice, also if not so rich in features.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  Just tried to install it from AUR, and it didn’t run on my Arch Linux system. `$ freeoffice-textmaker` Critical System Error: Unable to open X Window display. <:0> I assume it doesn’t support Wayland. And I don’t support X, I don’t use it and if an app doesn’t work on Wayland, I won’t use it. May be useful for someone else, who doesn’t tolerate Wayland being unsupported.

jamaicahest 3y ago

> - use an open source version of Android on your phone, without the Google services Having tried this many times over the last 10 years, I have never encountered a stable, non-vendor Android distribution for any of my phones. Oh there are always multiple available Android images for most popular phones, however in my experience they are always unstable in ways that make them too much of a hassle to use. I have experienced bluetooth suddenly disconnecting from my headset and refusign to reconnect until i reboot the phone, WiFi drops connection and needs a phone reboot, unable to make phone calls or receive SMS until I reboot the phone, phone randomly reboots without any interaction. These are primary uses for my phone and if the primary functionality of the Android image is broken, I do not want to use it.

diego_sandoval 3y ago
In the phone ecosystem, you have to choose the OS you want, and then buy a phone that is compatible with that OS. If you buy a random phone and then try to find a compatible OS, your options will be very limited, or null. GrapheneOS is, in my opinion, the most mature, serious, and reliable phone operating system, so I bought myself a Google Pixel specifically so that I could install GrapheneOS on it.

account42 3y ago

> 20 years ago it was impossible to buy a PC, especially a laptop, without MS Windows : today there are several suppliers: System76, LaptopWithLinux, TuxedoComputers, to name but a few. Buying components and assembling them yourself has always been an option for desktops (and IMO the best one). For laptops, I bought a Dell with Linux ~15 years ago - not quite 20 but close enough. > It is only in the last few years (less than 10) that Linux is perfectly usable on the desktop, so I don't care what decision MS will take for Windows, it is irrelevant if you have other options. For office suites we have: LibreOffice, OnlyOffice, FreeOffice Linux has been a perfectly usable desktop OS for a long time. I know because I have been using it for well over 10 years and have not missed the sorry excuse for a OS that is Windows. If anything, there are certain actors trying to lock down Linux to build their own walled garden. Of course being open source makes this harder but they do try and with hardware-backed crypto requirements may eventually succeed - source won't help you if whatever you build with it won't match the whitelisted checksums. > There are many messaging apps and protocols that are decentralised and resistant to censorship. Which is an improvement on a single Gaim/Pidgin being able to connect to all networks you can think of? We hardly need more messaging protocols and apps.