4 ms·

Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour

by Jabbles 15y ago

Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem. You are a horrible person.

daenz 15y ago
Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?
- Jabbles 15y ago
  Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. The situation isn't really comparable. Also, I'm not accusing Katie of cowardice.
  - mhartl 15y ago
    Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. Were they? I'd bet that everything you've ever read or seen about slavery was produced by abolitionists and their intellectual descendants. Perhaps this might slightly color your views on the subject. By the way, before you call me a horrible person again, please read carefully. Nothing in the above paragraph implies an endorsement of slavery.
    - Jabbles 15y ago
      Well, it's not my area of expertise... If you'd like to direct me to where I can read a more balanced view of the history of slavery I would be pleased to read it.
      - mhartl 15y ago
        Sure thing. The West Indies As They Are (1824) by Rev. Richard Bickell. It was written about slavery in Jamaica, where conditions were almost certainly worse than in the American South. http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPR3,M1 http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=t... South-Side View of Slavery (1854) by Nehemiah Adams, a Unitarian minister and abolitionist. http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=titlepage http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=t... American Negro Slavery (1918) by Ulrich Phillips. http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=t...
mhartl 15y ago
Counseling someone to accept a situation is not the same as endorsing it. And acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. Indeed, the OP's decision to leave the tech industry is an implicit acknowledgment of her acceptance. That's a rational decision. Posting a whiny (albeit well-written) essay about it isn't—at least, it's irrational if she wrote it to help solve the problem. If she was simply venting, and attempting to garner attention and sympathy, then the post served its purpose well.
- Jabbles 15y ago
  I disagree on almost all points. The attitudes and actions of certain people made someone's job so bad that they quit the industry. I am appalled by that, and I strongly disagree that they should have just put up with it. I don't think her leaving the industry signals acceptance; merely that she's been bullied out of it. I think this essay (I also disagree that it's "whiny") may, in some small way, help other people become aware of sexist behaviour.
- Gnolfo 15y ago
  That's all well and good but we're a far cry away from concluding there's a lack of sufficient power to effect change. We're not counseling someone who's just become paraplegic about their hopes of running a triathlon, this is a situation with room to improve. And just because we may not be able to improve it 100% doesn't mean we don't try. Criminal behavior will always exist as long as society exists but that doesn't mean you disband the police.

by Jabbles 15y ago

daenz 15y ago

Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?

Jabbles 15y ago
Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. The situation isn't really comparable. Also, I'm not accusing Katie of cowardice.
- mhartl 15y ago
  Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. Were they? I'd bet that everything you've ever read or seen about slavery was produced by abolitionists and their intellectual descendants. Perhaps this might slightly color your views on the subject. By the way, before you call me a horrible person again, please read carefully. Nothing in the above paragraph implies an endorsement of slavery.
  - Jabbles 15y ago
    Well, it's not my area of expertise... If you'd like to direct me to where I can read a more balanced view of the history of slavery I would be pleased to read it.
    - mhartl 15y ago
      Sure thing. The West Indies As They Are (1824) by Rev. Richard Bickell. It was written about slavery in Jamaica, where conditions were almost certainly worse than in the American South. http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPR3,M1 http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=t... South-Side View of Slavery (1854) by Nehemiah Adams, a Unitarian minister and abolitionist. http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=titlepage http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=t... American Negro Slavery (1918) by Ulrich Phillips. http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=t...

mhartl 15y ago

Counseling someone to accept a situation is not the same as endorsing it. And acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. Indeed, the OP's decision to leave the tech industry is an implicit acknowledgment of her acceptance. That's a rational decision. Posting a whiny (albeit well-written) essay about it isn't—at least, it's irrational if she wrote it to help solve the problem. If she was simply venting, and attempting to garner attention and sympathy, then the post served its purpose well.

Jabbles 15y ago
I disagree on almost all points. The attitudes and actions of certain people made someone's job so bad that they quit the industry. I am appalled by that, and I strongly disagree that they should have just put up with it. I don't think her leaving the industry signals acceptance; merely that she's been bullied out of it. I think this essay (I also disagree that it's "whiny") may, in some small way, help other people become aware of sexist behaviour.
Gnolfo 15y ago
That's all well and good but we're a far cry away from concluding there's a lack of sufficient power to effect change. We're not counseling someone who's just become paraplegic about their hopes of running a triathlon, this is a situation with room to improve. And just because we may not be able to improve it 100% doesn't mean we don't try. Criminal behavior will always exist as long as society exists but that doesn't mean you disband the police.