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To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make

• hythloday 15y ago
  I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.
  • Jabbles 15y ago
    I hope that my criticism helps. I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".
    • rosser 15y ago
      I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable". No, it doesn't. I can imagine myself saying all kinds patently disturbing and offensive things — things which, to a certainty, are not remotely "reasonable" — but I would never actually say, let alone mean, them. By analogy, I can imagine pulling my Leatherman out of its sheath and sticking the blade between someone's ribs. Doesn't mean it's reasonable, or that I'd ever do it, especially not in jest.
      • deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
    • hythloday 15y ago
      I can totally see how you read him as justifying himself; I read him as being conflicted about being brought up to believe that it was OK to do things he now thinks aren't OK, so I wanted to speak up in appreciation that someone would put himself in a position to be criticized like that--I think "masculinity" (whatever that is) benefits from having people say that.
      • Jabbles 15y ago
        Absolutely, I agree - I appreciate him expressing his opinion, as it's provoked a good discussion. However, I still disapprove of that opinion. Also, I misread that as "censor", my mistake.
        • scott_s 15y ago
          You're still misunderstanding what he said. He is not expressing his opinion that its acceptable to say such things. He realizes it's wrong to say such things - but he is disturbed because he realizes that it's something he may say.
    • klausa 15y ago
      I'm sorry, my English is failing me during this conversation, but I'll try to be more precise. I certainly don't think that's reasonable think to say. That part was more like "Fuck, I could actually say something like this, and this is BAD.". It comes from teenage-and-trying-to-get-group-approval-me saying things before slightly-more-adult-and-trying-to-not-be-an-asshole-me has chance to suppress those thoughts or words. I don't mean to imply in any way that was "reasonable", just something I could at first glance recognize as harmless and say, whereas when you just think about it for a second, it totally isn't and you shouldn't.
      • Jabbles 15y ago
        Hmm, I can see the difference between that and "reasonable". Thanks for the clarification. In that case the point I made is fairly moot, as it basically agrees with you in that it's a "BAD" thing to say.
        • knightenvy 15y ago
          Sensitivity needs to be used with common sense. If a small fire has started in the kitchen, do you wait hoping it will go out on its own because using a fire extinguisher will make a mess? Before I continue, how often have you said a line or phrase to a friend or someone you have had a long term relationship with (without defining that relationship) that could be viewed as "bad" out of context? I have seen blacks call each other the N word, people call each other homosexuals, all in their comfort zones of understanding that the other person was not saying anything to be offensive. It is called understanding each other. She rants on about how "guys" think and how the "guys" push roles upon her. It has nothing to do with roles. Pot luck? There is a very good chance that no one wanted that job regardless of gender. I'm a programmer. I don't have time to do a pot luck. It doesn't matter if I am a man or woman, I am going to try to get out of it. You didn't and you got stuck with it. I have said comments not unlike the one in the article to a woman before. I didn't do it because I felt beneath her, or that she was weaker, or didn't belong there. I knew her for a long time, and felt comfortable that she would not be offended, and that she would get a laugh about it. If she didn't like something I said, she would likely jab me in the gut or tell me to clean up my mouth, and I would oblige. The problem is she never addressed the issue, and instead let it go even though it was eating her up inside to the point where it did serious damage to her career. Why? Because she caved in to her own assumptions and did not address it. The guy could be a complete douche, or he could have believed that he was giving her a compliment (albeit a lame one) about her dress and the effect it had on him. No one knows from what place his comment came from except for him and she didn't try to find out. True to tell someone to "lighten up" is a remark that disallows someones point of view. That is horribly wrong. But it is wrong to force everyone to make assumptions about everyone else without discussing it with them. If someone steps over the line, it is your responsibility to address it to them. She did not do that. Instead she went on a blog and lambasted every male coder in the business. Strange. I find that horribly inappropriate.
• ErrantX 15y ago
  > Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it. Absolutely. One of the first jobs I worked was doing admin & tech support in a small office - full of women. Worst 6 months of my life, and my experience was much the same as this bloggers. Which has really helped me avoid this sort of problematic behaviour now I am working in a mostly-male industry/workplace.
  • knightenvy 15y ago
    Did you at any time ask them to not make those comments?
    • ErrantX 15y ago
      As a 17 year old lad, in an office full of women, average age ~30? That's a very difficult sort of scenario to cope with. You're fresh from school where you adapt, rather than complain, to the environment. You have no experience of work, office politics or whether this is actually how it happens in the real world! You have no peers who understand your perspective. And if you make a major scene? Everyone starts tiptoeing round you for fear of causing offence. That, more than the comments themselves, is what is upsetting. The knowledge you can't actually get them to treat you as they treat each other.
• tomp 15y ago
  Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a not very effective way. I might be a sexist too! If you tell me in a nice way (simply saying that you think what is going on is wrong/unfair) I will reflect, and most likely change my behaviour in the future. However, if you attack me, or even worse, say nothing but rant on the internet, I will take it personally, as an attack on my identity, and I might refuse to change, out of principle. What we're trying to do here is enlighten a certain aspect of our society that is wrong/unjust, and I believe that should be done by teaching people, not attacking them. (I'm not saying that the OP definitely took the wrong path. She might have told her boss, and they did nothing different, they didn't learn. In that case, I see no better option but to attack, shame them...)
  • scott_s 15y ago
    Physical appraisals of another person's attractiveness do not belong in the work place. It puts people in awkward positions, and introduces power asymmetries. And yes, I do not want people at work to say such things about me, regardless of gender.
    • knightenvy 15y ago
      Well, I differ there. If someone gives me a compliment, I appreciate it. Usually it is about a hair cut, or a choice piece of clothing. I never took it as a sexual advance. However your post bring up an important subject. There are differing opinions here. Why is one opinion more justified than the other in the work place? For example: Why should I not be able to give a genuine complement about let say a woman's shoes? The work place is so filled with terror to the point where some companies policies are that a member of the same sex must be present to do simple coaching tasks. Is this not absolutely ridiculous?
      • 15y ago
• erichocean 15y ago
  I don't disagree with anything you have to say, but a thought did enter my mind: At what point did we become okay with excluding sexuality from human lives, or a large portion of them -- the time we spend working? Sexuality is every bit as much a "human" endeavor as, say, eating -- and we don't (currently) say: never eat at work, work is for work only (despite the fact that food does separate people from each other, and accentuates differences). Anyway, a random rambling, but I thought I'd share anyway...
  • tmeasday 15y ago
    Yeah, one day it might be OK, but I think today we need to be a bit careful..
  • danilocampos 15y ago
    I agree it's regrettable. But it does seem necessary. I think the point where it happened was when we, collectively, noticed that people were exploiting professional power asymmetry for their own sexual gain. Often at the cost of another human's dignity and self-respect – not to mention career prospects.
  • VMG 15y ago
    It is called "The Civilizing Process". It started in the middle ages, right at the time when belching and passing gas became unacceptable in social gatherings. More here: http://www.amazon.com/Civilizing-Process-Sociogenetic-Psychogenetic-Investigations/dp/0631221611 http://www.amazon.com/Civilizing-Process-Sociogenetic-Psycho...
  • KuraFire 15y ago
    The problem with sexuality in the workplace / people's daily lives today is that a lot of the content (commentary, ideas, beliefs, etc.) revolves around objectifying, marginalizing and degrading women—not as individuals, but as women across the board. Now, a lot of sexually empowered women have no problem with discussing sex openly, or being objectified in the bedroom, or even talking about being objectified in the bedroom while at work. However, the difference is that in those cases, it is always the woman's choice to participate in it. Since they are the marginalized demographic in this matter, the choice should be theirs to indicate what is and isn't acceptable commentary, discussion or behavior in the workplace. Today's environment is one where it’s _men_ who overwhelmingly decide, by way of majority-reinforcement, what other people should consider to be acceptable or not. It all comes down to marginalization: we don't marginalize or trivialize people—or their accomplishments—based on the fact that they eat. However, our society does tend to do those things to people based on their gender; specifically, to women based on their gender. Once we eradicate the culture in which that happens, people can express themselves sexually more freely and without hesitation, in the safe and sound knowledge that doing so won't instantly label them in a certain way that would dramatically (in a negative way) impact their professional and/or social lives—or worse.