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Tolkien wrote a world that functions the way a Catholic wants the real world to work, even though it doesn't. Morality is uncomplicated, there is a clear black

Tolkien wrote a world that functions the way a Catholic wants the real world to work, even though it doesn't. Morality is uncomplicated, there is a clear black and white divide and nobody ever wonders if say, Sauron might be coexisted with in some way. Morality is deontological. Good actions are good, period. Furthermore, they don't backfire. When Gandalf lets Grima go, or when people take pity on Gollum, that's not naive idealism, that's the objectively right thing to do. Such actions just don't backfire on people in this world. On the other hand, evil is a path to ruin and misery. Grima is miserable with Saruman, Saruman doesn't like him either. Saruman dies by Grima's hand once Grima has had enough, and Grima dies too. Villains don't get happy endings. Mercy has a magical power of sorts. Frodo only succeeds because of his mercy on Gollum. There's also an essentialism to things. Tom Bombadil is this weird thing, and that's that. You can't convince him to take care of the Ring, it's just not in his nature to care about that sort of thing, and it's completely non-negotiable. Evil never creates, it only spends chunks of itself to corrupt perfection. If you read it from the standpoint of "what if Catholicism was true, and the world functioned in the way the religion says it does", it's quite interesting.

ekianjo 3y ago
> Morality is deontological. Good actions are good, period. Furthermore, they don't backfire. Looks like you never read the scouring of the Shire
- dale_glass 3y ago
  Neither Gandalf, nor Theoden nor Treebeard are harmed by it. In the Shire, the trouble started when Lotho took over, before Saruman showed up. Lotho then got deposed and killed by Saruman. So without Saruman getting there, the Shire was already in some trouble anyway.
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    saruman was deeply influencing the shire before he was chucked out of isengard
sensen85 3y ago
> Morality is deontological. Good actions are good, period. Furthermore, they don't backfire. When Gandalf lets Grima go, or when people take pity on Gollum, that's not naive idealism, that's the objectively right thing to do. Such actions just don't backfire on people in this world. I don’t think that’s accurate. Gollum surviving is the cause of a great number of very bad things, including Sauron discovering the location of the Ring. At the end of course it all comes together: if the location wasn’t discovered, the quest to permanently destroy the ring wouldn’t have started, and it’s by Gollum’s hands that it is destroyed. But the moral there isn’t “good actions don’t backfire”, but more like this: good action can backfire, sometimes in terrible ways, but good people must endure the consequences without doubt and without remorse, keeping faith that things will all be set right at the ultimate end. In the real world, of course, the ultimate end does not arrive before our deaths.
gipp 3y ago
An important distinction, I think, is that good and evil are tangible and unambiguous as forces in the world, but there is still plenty of room for complexity in the struggle of good and evil within an individual. Is Smeagol truly evil? Is Denethor? Especially true if you move beyond beyond LotR proper -- Feanor, Turin, etc. Plenty of complex individual struggles even within a relatively simple and immutable binary of good and evil in the world's epistemology.
- smogcutter 3y ago
  Denethor is an interesting character. He’s one of the only (if not the only?) antagonists who is not evil. Denethor’s flaw is that he has given up hope. Denethor is the only cynic in middle earth.
  - funnybeam 3y ago
    Theoden also had given up hope until Gandalf shook him out of it And the defenders at Minas Tirith, Saruman, even the elves - the whole lot of them in middle earth have given up hope. Despair is one of the key themes running through all of Tolkiens work. Denethor was far from alone
simonh 3y ago
All true, I think it’s important to bear in mind he was consciously writing mythology and fairy tales. I’m not a Catholic, but knowing his premise I’m quite happy to judge his work on its merits relative to his objectives. I’m reminded of the fact some people disliked Battlestar Galactica because it was inspired by Mormonism. That’s another case where I don’t have to share the same beliefs as the authors to appreciate what they created on their own terms. I think if we only accepted and appreciated work that already aligns with our personal beliefs or ideology, we’d be missing out.
- watwut 3y ago
  > All true, I think it’s important to bear in mind he was consciously writing mythology and fairy tales. I’m not a Catholic, but knowing his premise I’m quite happy to judge his work on its merits relative to his objectives. Myths and fairy tales don't necessary have morality like that. Fairly often, they just don't. The reiterations for little children are like that, because we intentionally write them to teach moral values. But the original collected versions fairly often end badly or the right act ends in disaster or million other things happen. Often times they are about smarter one winning foe comedic effect rather then anything else.
  - simonh 3y ago
    True, but being Catholic I can't help thinking that even though I don't think he cited it as an inspiration, the bible was a template on which his mythology is built. It's a monotheistic world with hinted fall from grace back in Human origins, angelic beings, a Satan analog in Morgoth. So you're right though, I should qualify that my saying he was writing a mythology in the Biblical style but culturally North West European.
    - watwut 3y ago
      I don't think Bible follow that pattern all that much either. It is years since I read the actual Bible, but from what I remember it is not an epic nor a myth nor something like that. The good vs evil simplification is solidly something rooted in Christianity and Catholic tradition I am agree with that. Just not that straigfordly from Bible.
Amezarak 3y ago
Saruman and Wormtongue drastically accelerated their destruction of the Shire because the protagonists let them go free. Much less damage would have been done and the final effect would have been the same if they’d just killed them.
- themadturk 3y ago
  Note that in the Jackson movies, Saruman and Wormtongue died at Isengard, and there was no need to scour the Shire. Though I enjoy Jackson's movies as a whole, I have quibbles with some of his choices. But this one actually makes sense, from a cinematic point of view, and the screenwriting team did a good job of changing the story in such a way that changing one element removed the need for the other.
prewett 3y ago
> nobody ever wonders if say, Sauron might be coexisted with in some way Well, Gondor tried to coexist with him but their watch grew slack and he took over the city built to watch him. Numenor embraced him and was ruined. Even the elves originally considered him a friend, before he betrayed them with the Ring. Saruman seems to have tried to use him. So if they don't think coexistence is possible, it is from bitter experience.

ekianjo 3y ago

> Morality is deontological. Good actions are good, period. Furthermore, they don't backfire. Looks like you never read the scouring of the Shire

dale_glass 3y ago
Neither Gandalf, nor Theoden nor Treebeard are harmed by it. In the Shire, the trouble started when Lotho took over, before Saruman showed up. Lotho then got deposed and killed by Saruman. So without Saruman getting there, the Shire was already in some trouble anyway.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  saruman was deeply influencing the shire before he was chucked out of isengard

sensen85 3y ago

> Morality is deontological. Good actions are good, period. Furthermore, they don't backfire. When Gandalf lets Grima go, or when people take pity on Gollum, that's not naive idealism, that's the objectively right thing to do. Such actions just don't backfire on people in this world. I don’t think that’s accurate. Gollum surviving is the cause of a great number of very bad things, including Sauron discovering the location of the Ring. At the end of course it all comes together: if the location wasn’t discovered, the quest to permanently destroy the ring wouldn’t have started, and it’s by Gollum’s hands that it is destroyed. But the moral there isn’t “good actions don’t backfire”, but more like this: good action can backfire, sometimes in terrible ways, but good people must endure the consequences without doubt and without remorse, keeping faith that things will all be set right at the ultimate end. In the real world, of course, the ultimate end does not arrive before our deaths.

gipp 3y ago

An important distinction, I think, is that good and evil are tangible and unambiguous as forces in the world, but there is still plenty of room for complexity in the struggle of good and evil within an individual. Is Smeagol truly evil? Is Denethor? Especially true if you move beyond beyond LotR proper -- Feanor, Turin, etc. Plenty of complex individual struggles even within a relatively simple and immutable binary of good and evil in the world's epistemology.

smogcutter 3y ago
Denethor is an interesting character. He’s one of the only (if not the only?) antagonists who is not evil. Denethor’s flaw is that he has given up hope. Denethor is the only cynic in middle earth.
- funnybeam 3y ago
  Theoden also had given up hope until Gandalf shook him out of it And the defenders at Minas Tirith, Saruman, even the elves - the whole lot of them in middle earth have given up hope. Despair is one of the key themes running through all of Tolkiens work. Denethor was far from alone

simonh 3y ago

All true, I think it’s important to bear in mind he was consciously writing mythology and fairy tales. I’m not a Catholic, but knowing his premise I’m quite happy to judge his work on its merits relative to his objectives. I’m reminded of the fact some people disliked Battlestar Galactica because it was inspired by Mormonism. That’s another case where I don’t have to share the same beliefs as the authors to appreciate what they created on their own terms. I think if we only accepted and appreciated work that already aligns with our personal beliefs or ideology, we’d be missing out.

watwut 3y ago
> All true, I think it’s important to bear in mind he was consciously writing mythology and fairy tales. I’m not a Catholic, but knowing his premise I’m quite happy to judge his work on its merits relative to his objectives. Myths and fairy tales don't necessary have morality like that. Fairly often, they just don't. The reiterations for little children are like that, because we intentionally write them to teach moral values. But the original collected versions fairly often end badly or the right act ends in disaster or million other things happen. Often times they are about smarter one winning foe comedic effect rather then anything else.
- simonh 3y ago
  True, but being Catholic I can't help thinking that even though I don't think he cited it as an inspiration, the bible was a template on which his mythology is built. It's a monotheistic world with hinted fall from grace back in Human origins, angelic beings, a Satan analog in Morgoth. So you're right though, I should qualify that my saying he was writing a mythology in the Biblical style but culturally North West European.
  - watwut 3y ago
    I don't think Bible follow that pattern all that much either. It is years since I read the actual Bible, but from what I remember it is not an epic nor a myth nor something like that. The good vs evil simplification is solidly something rooted in Christianity and Catholic tradition I am agree with that. Just not that straigfordly from Bible.

Amezarak 3y ago

Saruman and Wormtongue drastically accelerated their destruction of the Shire because the protagonists let them go free. Much less damage would have been done and the final effect would have been the same if they’d just killed them.

themadturk 3y ago
Note that in the Jackson movies, Saruman and Wormtongue died at Isengard, and there was no need to scour the Shire. Though I enjoy Jackson's movies as a whole, I have quibbles with some of his choices. But this one actually makes sense, from a cinematic point of view, and the screenwriting team did a good job of changing the story in such a way that changing one element removed the need for the other.

prewett 3y ago

> nobody ever wonders if say, Sauron might be coexisted with in some way Well, Gondor tried to coexist with him but their watch grew slack and he took over the city built to watch him. Numenor embraced him and was ruined. Even the elves originally considered him a friend, before he betrayed them with the Ring. Saruman seems to have tried to use him. So if they don't think coexistence is possible, it is from bitter experience.