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I was actually confused by that for a moment when reading the article. I think rants such as yours are good and important. Despite not being a native English s

I was actually confused by that for a moment when reading the article. I think rants such as yours are good and important. Despite not being a native English speaker, I think English speakers should strive to hold to their language rules and not let globalism and less informed people like me take their rich vocabulary and correct grammar away from them.

actionfromafar 3y ago
The natives do it plenty to themselves, too. It cannot be <whatever>stated.
nkrisc 3y ago
It is an entirely self-inflicted wound.
mongol 3y ago
With English as a true lingua franca, I think us non-native speakers should feel some ownership too. It is the language we are required to speak when communicating with foreigners in a globalized world. I think we should see it as our language as well.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  I don't hew to the notion that a people can "own" a language.
- rendall 3y ago
  I agree with you, even as a native English speaker. I reside in Northern Europe where almost everyone speaks truly excellent English with a kind of formidable grammatical correctness. However, it is definitely spoken as a business/technical/lingua franca and not as a beautiful, poetic language in its own right. I would love the people who speak it non-natively to truly own it by learning and caring about the nuances, idioms and poetry of English. Know and care for instance what it means when you have me in stitches, or he's a square peg in a round hole, or they got her goat or when someone sighs about a path not taken or says Ay, there's the rub. English is as much about these idioms and aphorisms as it is about making grammatically correct declarative statements like "They write an email. I train an employee. It costs 17 euros. They respect the treaty. She prepares a speech."
  - mongol 3y ago
    I think people care, to the extent they are familiar with the idioms. But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. I don't hear it used except by Indian English-speakers but I think it should have equal status as your examples.
    - rendall 3y ago
      > But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. Yes! Absolutely! I agree 100%. English contains multitudes! What does it mean? I think I have even heard it. Where did it come from? Like, a poem or ...?
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        Isn’t it more “nature calls” than a call to nature, so to speak ;-)
    - themadturk 3y ago
      >I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. I don't hear it used except by Indian English-speakers but I think it should have equal status as your examples. When my U.S. employer opened a technology center in Chennai, with the full intent of making two co-equal teams 12 hours apart, one of the first idioms our American staff learned from India was "do the needful." This is just to let you know that a whole bunch of very American tech people use this delightful and handy phrase all the time.
    - rendall 3y ago
      One of the marvelous things about English is that there are no official gatekeepers who determine correct English. It will happily absorb foreign or regional words and concepts. For instance, schadenfreude is probably now a proper English word despite its foreign origin. Often idioms and memes are adopted and propagated through popular entertainment. So if you want people to adopt and use "do the needful", one way is to write a popular and ensuring classic!
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  I alter my English when talking to non-native speakers. The primary goal is to be understood. But 'international English' is not all how I talk to native speakers, or think to myself, or dream in. I'm quite comfortable with this split.
deleted 3y ago
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actionfromafar 3y ago

The natives do it plenty to themselves, too. It cannot be <whatever>stated.

nkrisc 3y ago

It is an entirely self-inflicted wound.

mongol 3y ago

With English as a true lingua franca, I think us non-native speakers should feel some ownership too. It is the language we are required to speak when communicating with foreigners in a globalized world. I think we should see it as our language as well.

WalterBright 3y ago
I don't hew to the notion that a people can "own" a language.
rendall 3y ago
I agree with you, even as a native English speaker. I reside in Northern Europe where almost everyone speaks truly excellent English with a kind of formidable grammatical correctness. However, it is definitely spoken as a business/technical/lingua franca and not as a beautiful, poetic language in its own right. I would love the people who speak it non-natively to truly own it by learning and caring about the nuances, idioms and poetry of English. Know and care for instance what it means when you have me in stitches, or he's a square peg in a round hole, or they got her goat or when someone sighs about a path not taken or says Ay, there's the rub. English is as much about these idioms and aphorisms as it is about making grammatically correct declarative statements like "They write an email. I train an employee. It costs 17 euros. They respect the treaty. She prepares a speech."
- mongol 3y ago
  I think people care, to the extent they are familiar with the idioms. But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. I don't hear it used except by Indian English-speakers but I think it should have equal status as your examples.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > But what I think matters equally is that new idioms born outside of the natively spoken English should be seen as equally valuable, when they get a meaningful reach. I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. Yes! Absolutely! I agree 100%. English contains multitudes! What does it mean? I think I have even heard it. Where did it come from? Like, a poem or ...?
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Isn’t it more “nature calls” than a call to nature, so to speak ;-)
  - themadturk 3y ago
    >I am thinking for example of "do the needful" which I understand being born in India. I don't hear it used except by Indian English-speakers but I think it should have equal status as your examples. When my U.S. employer opened a technology center in Chennai, with the full intent of making two co-equal teams 12 hours apart, one of the first idioms our American staff learned from India was "do the needful." This is just to let you know that a whole bunch of very American tech people use this delightful and handy phrase all the time.
  - rendall 3y ago
    One of the marvelous things about English is that there are no official gatekeepers who determine correct English. It will happily absorb foreign or regional words and concepts. For instance, schadenfreude is probably now a proper English word despite its foreign origin. Often idioms and memes are adopted and propagated through popular entertainment. So if you want people to adopt and use "do the needful", one way is to write a popular and ensuring classic!
LAC-Tech 3y ago
I alter my English when talking to non-native speakers. The primary goal is to be understood. But 'international English' is not all how I talk to native speakers, or think to myself, or dream in. I'm quite comfortable with this split.

deleted 3y ago

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