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Others have the system but is it as good and seamless as the Indian one?

RandomLensman 3y ago
Depends on what you mean. Instant transfers up to €100k work in Europe's SEPA (and you can indeed use a QR to encode the transfer information with most bank apps, I think). And there is of course the usual contact-less payment stuff at merchants.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
  That's still not as easy as app payments. There are a number of systems like BLIK in Poland where you have a lower max payment amount, but you just give somebody a temporary 6 digit number and approve the amount they withdraw, that's it. For trusted payment channels you just approve. If you initiate the payment, just give phone number of recipient.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Agreed, but I think for places with a mature payments and debit infrastructure there isn't that much additional business and I suspect most banks' apps will just incorporate that like they do with NFC payments. Most growth in payments is either new markets or markets that grow a lot, but not completion of rather mature markets (and additional services).
    - vinay_ys 3y ago
      When you compare UPI to western instant payment systems, the most important metrics to look at are consumer choice (banks and experience apps), cost of acceptance, settlement speed and fraud/clawback rates. UPI has broadest interop based consumer choice, free to consumers and lowest cost overall, highest volume of transactions, has fastest settlement and extremely minimal fraud. It is also most inclusive – it works with smartphones, feature phones and soon with only voice calls. It also works offline. And it works for everything from buying a cup of coffee to sending money to your grandma to doing investments in mutual funds and stocks and making large purchases like buying a car.
whizzter 3y ago
Swish has 3 ways: 1: You follow a link on your phone that opens the app, you're prompted with the transaction sum and then sign with a code on the phone and done. 2: You scan a QR code (from sign or screen), opens a prompt in app for the sum, sign and done 3: Person-to-person, you enter their phone number(often from the phone book), amount and message, sign and done. The signing is done via the standard app that's also used to login to the tax-office,etc so the entire population has it.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  Just remember that all else being equal, UPI is still a far more impressive system. Here’s the reasons: 1. A 100x higher volume on a normal day. 2. A highly effective and equitable system that somehow managed to succeed in one of the most corrupt and beauracratic nations. 3. The majority of its users can barely read, if at all. Not to mention all the languages involved. UPI is impressive because it actually made a difference in the lives of the poor. Probably the first piece of internet technology to have a measurable effect on the lives of hundreds of millions of people. So yeah the case sounds rested in my perspective. EDIT: also sounds like Swish charges a fee to the banks? Sounds a bit outrageous for a payment system trying to be the best in the world to charge a fee.
  - wtmt 3y ago
    > EDIT: also sounds like Swish charges a fee to the banks? Sounds a bit outrageous for a payment system trying to be the best in the world to charge a fee. FWIW, NPCI charges all banks for UPI too. They’ve been eating most of those costs because the government didn’t allow them to charge (now those charges are slowly coming in). Banks haven’t been happy with the zero MDR regime for UPI.
    - ramraj07 3y ago
      According to here: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/npci-recommends-up-to-11-interchange-fee-on-upi-transactions-of-over-2000-via-ppis/article66672519.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/npci-... Doesn’t apply for transactions less than ₹2000 ($24 usd). Might sound like a small amount but most Indian transactions won’t cross that. And the fee doesn’t apply to p2p anyway.
ztrww 3y ago
Tapping my phone on an NFC terminal seems much easier and more straightforward than having to scan a QR or install a third party app and having to figure out how to link it with my bank account. There is just probably not a lot of demand for a system like this in much of the west (in cases where you can’t use a card there is always SEPA instant payments)
- ramraj07 3y ago
  The QR code has been a far more robust system for the Indian ecosystem which is predominantly filled with low-cost phones of widely different operating systems. A QR code also behaves as a readily identifiable logo of payment and further works from a distance. If anything I prefer the deliberateness of scanning a QR code, clearly similar to half a billion people at the least.
  - Indian_in_US 3y ago
    I’ve used both and I prefer NFC over UPI. I just need credit card and phone that supports NFC. No need of phone number, deal with entering pin, scanning QR code, linking account during setup, etc. Biggest plus point with linking credit card is fraud protection. In US NFC is best and seamless since most people have high end phones. In India maybe UPI with QR code is better solution since you only need phone with a camera.
kmlx 3y ago
a lot more seamless. you just tap your credit card and that’s it.
- programmer_dude 3y ago
  This exists in India too. But people don't use it. Why take on debt if you don't need to? UPI is directly connected to your bank account. It does not go through VISA, Mastercard or whatever.
  - mkl95 3y ago
    Not sure it qualifies as debt. It's just an agreement with your bank to give them that money in a few weeks / days. And if you commit to spending some small amount per year with your card (usually something like $1500), the bank will offer you some nice perks on their products that you don't get by using other payment methods. If you use something like UPI and you are making some kind of deal with your bank, you are basically losing money.
    - programmer_dude 3y ago
      Credit card annual interest rates can be as high as (or even higher than) 50%. This is not trivial, it can (and does) ruin lives. It is a type of debt (though conditional).
      - mkl95 3y ago
        I don't know about other areas, but in the West the overlap between credit card users and people who can get a decent loan at a <10% interest rate is very high. Which is why for most credit card users, credit is a no go if they are not paying it back quickly. UPI counterpart's use case is to send a bit of money to your friend when you share a meal etc.
        programmer_dude 3y ago
        You have to remember to pay back your credit card debt before the clock runs out. Once you make a UPI payment the transaction ends there (because the money is debited from your bank account and you are not taking on a conditional loan). You don't have to remember to pay the UPI company anything after the fact. I hope this explains how UPI is different from credit cards.

Depends on what you mean. Instant transfers up to €100k work in Europe's SEPA (and you can indeed use a QR to encode the transfer information with most bank apps, I think). And there is of course the usual contact-less payment stuff at merchants.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
That's still not as easy as app payments. There are a number of systems like BLIK in Poland where you have a lower max payment amount, but you just give somebody a temporary 6 digit number and approve the amount they withdraw, that's it. For trusted payment channels you just approve. If you initiate the payment, just give phone number of recipient.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Agreed, but I think for places with a mature payments and debit infrastructure there isn't that much additional business and I suspect most banks' apps will just incorporate that like they do with NFC payments. Most growth in payments is either new markets or markets that grow a lot, but not completion of rather mature markets (and additional services).
  - vinay_ys 3y ago
    When you compare UPI to western instant payment systems, the most important metrics to look at are consumer choice (banks and experience apps), cost of acceptance, settlement speed and fraud/clawback rates. UPI has broadest interop based consumer choice, free to consumers and lowest cost overall, highest volume of transactions, has fastest settlement and extremely minimal fraud. It is also most inclusive – it works with smartphones, feature phones and soon with only voice calls. It also works offline. And it works for everything from buying a cup of coffee to sending money to your grandma to doing investments in mutual funds and stocks and making large purchases like buying a car.

whizzter 3y ago

Swish has 3 ways: 1: You follow a link on your phone that opens the app, you're prompted with the transaction sum and then sign with a code on the phone and done. 2: You scan a QR code (from sign or screen), opens a prompt in app for the sum, sign and done 3: Person-to-person, you enter their phone number(often from the phone book), amount and message, sign and done. The signing is done via the standard app that's also used to login to the tax-office,etc so the entire population has it.

ramraj07 3y ago
Just remember that all else being equal, UPI is still a far more impressive system. Here’s the reasons: 1. A 100x higher volume on a normal day. 2. A highly effective and equitable system that somehow managed to succeed in one of the most corrupt and beauracratic nations. 3. The majority of its users can barely read, if at all. Not to mention all the languages involved. UPI is impressive because it actually made a difference in the lives of the poor. Probably the first piece of internet technology to have a measurable effect on the lives of hundreds of millions of people. So yeah the case sounds rested in my perspective. EDIT: also sounds like Swish charges a fee to the banks? Sounds a bit outrageous for a payment system trying to be the best in the world to charge a fee.
- wtmt 3y ago
  > EDIT: also sounds like Swish charges a fee to the banks? Sounds a bit outrageous for a payment system trying to be the best in the world to charge a fee. FWIW, NPCI charges all banks for UPI too. They’ve been eating most of those costs because the government didn’t allow them to charge (now those charges are slowly coming in). Banks haven’t been happy with the zero MDR regime for UPI.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    According to here: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/npci-recommends-up-to-11-interchange-fee-on-upi-transactions-of-over-2000-via-ppis/article66672519.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/npci-... Doesn’t apply for transactions less than ₹2000 ($24 usd). Might sound like a small amount but most Indian transactions won’t cross that. And the fee doesn’t apply to p2p anyway.

ztrww 3y ago

Tapping my phone on an NFC terminal seems much easier and more straightforward than having to scan a QR or install a third party app and having to figure out how to link it with my bank account. There is just probably not a lot of demand for a system like this in much of the west (in cases where you can’t use a card there is always SEPA instant payments)

ramraj07 3y ago
The QR code has been a far more robust system for the Indian ecosystem which is predominantly filled with low-cost phones of widely different operating systems. A QR code also behaves as a readily identifiable logo of payment and further works from a distance. If anything I prefer the deliberateness of scanning a QR code, clearly similar to half a billion people at the least.
- Indian_in_US 3y ago
  I’ve used both and I prefer NFC over UPI. I just need credit card and phone that supports NFC. No need of phone number, deal with entering pin, scanning QR code, linking account during setup, etc. Biggest plus point with linking credit card is fraud protection. In US NFC is best and seamless since most people have high end phones. In India maybe UPI with QR code is better solution since you only need phone with a camera.

kmlx 3y ago

a lot more seamless. you just tap your credit card and that’s it.

programmer_dude 3y ago
This exists in India too. But people don't use it. Why take on debt if you don't need to? UPI is directly connected to your bank account. It does not go through VISA, Mastercard or whatever.
- mkl95 3y ago
  Not sure it qualifies as debt. It's just an agreement with your bank to give them that money in a few weeks / days. And if you commit to spending some small amount per year with your card (usually something like $1500), the bank will offer you some nice perks on their products that you don't get by using other payment methods. If you use something like UPI and you are making some kind of deal with your bank, you are basically losing money.
  - programmer_dude 3y ago
    Credit card annual interest rates can be as high as (or even higher than) 50%. This is not trivial, it can (and does) ruin lives. It is a type of debt (though conditional).
    - mkl95 3y ago
      I don't know about other areas, but in the West the overlap between credit card users and people who can get a decent loan at a <10% interest rate is very high. Which is why for most credit card users, credit is a no go if they are not paying it back quickly. UPI counterpart's use case is to send a bit of money to your friend when you share a meal etc.
      - programmer_dude 3y ago
        You have to remember to pay back your credit card debt before the clock runs out. Once you make a UPI payment the transaction ends there (because the money is debited from your bank account and you are not taking on a conditional loan). You don't have to remember to pay the UPI company anything after the fact. I hope this explains how UPI is different from credit cards.