5 ms·

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? The thing is, we l

by mhartl 15y ago

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference. Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore. N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.

daenz 15y ago
Amen. Don't let the downvotes bother you, you're seeing 100% clearly and not blinded by the irrationality that seems to be filling this thread.
InclinedPlane 15y ago
It used to be acceptable to use the N-word in the workplace. Casually. With seriousness. Things change. Fuck acceptance.
- mhartl 15y ago
  Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.
  - InclinedPlane 15y ago
    How do you know you lack sufficient power to effect change if you don't try?
    - daenz 15y ago
      Who said nobody tried? Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?
      - InclinedPlane 15y ago
        Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?
        daenz 15y ago
        > Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Sure you would, buddy. Just like you're out there beating up the people who are oppressing the original poster, like fucking batman. > Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"? Yeah, I would. Because if you have any foresight, you can see that its a transitional period, and is unsustainable, and is in the process of changing. I can help more people alive than I can dead for smuggling a few slaves out.
        DanBC 15y ago
        "Schindler's List" would have made a lousy movie if he just told people to "Hang in There".
        daenz 15y ago
        And who says he never did do that? You think he never came across people who were too risky to try to save? Why wasn't he able to save all the jews? My point was that it's pretty far fetched for anyone to believe InclinedPlane would risk his life saving slaves when he won't even risk his career trying to legally torpedo the original poster's workplace. It's posturing, nothing more.
  - doidydoidy 15y ago
    "Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
hythloday 15y ago
And yet you have two people in this thread saying "I see myself in what you complain about and I don't like it". It's interesting that you draw from that "nothing can ever change" (my phrasing).
- mhartl 15y ago
  You put quotes around the phrase "nothing can ever change", and yet that phrase doesn't appear in the parent comment. I suggest restricting yourself to rebutting arguments I actually made.
  - hythloday 15y ago
    How would you characterize the difference between "the problem is unfixable" and "nothing can ever change"? They are substansively the same position.
    - mhartl 15y ago
      I thought it was clear from context, but I've added a clarifying clause. The point is that, if firing people for commenting on low-cut dresses doesn't work, complaining about it in a blog post certainly isn't going to do the trick. The problem is unfixable using the means at the disposal of the OP. In this case, although the outcome is lamentable, leaving the industry may be a rational response.
      - hythloday 15y ago
        Firing people is clearly an extreme option; it might be worth asking kcunning if she felt that was an appropriate reaction (I'd guess not). Writing a blog post, on the other hand, has generated half a dozen people changing their minds about how much sexism they're prepared to put up with (ranging from "I am confronting my own active sexism and resolving to change it" to "I am more inclined to speak up to challenge active sexism when I see it"). Speaking for myself, it was a series of posts like this that gave me the confidence to start calling other men out when I saw active sexism take place. I suppose you could argue that everyone in this thread who is appearing to change their mind is lying, but that seems to be begging the question--purely on the responses I'd suggest that the preponderance of evidence is that writing blog posts does produce incremental change.
Jabbles 15y ago
Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem. You are a horrible person.
- daenz 15y ago
  Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?
  - Jabbles 15y ago
    Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. The situation isn't really comparable. Also, I'm not accusing Katie of cowardice.
    - mhartl 15y ago
      Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. Were they? I'd bet that everything you've ever read or seen about slavery was produced by abolitionists and their intellectual descendants. Perhaps this might slightly color your views on the subject. By the way, before you call me a horrible person again, please read carefully. Nothing in the above paragraph implies an endorsement of slavery.
      - Jabbles 15y ago
        Well, it's not my area of expertise... If you'd like to direct me to where I can read a more balanced view of the history of slavery I would be pleased to read it.
        mhartl 15y ago
        Sure thing. The West Indies As They Are (1824) by Rev. Richard Bickell. It was written about slavery in Jamaica, where conditions were almost certainly worse than in the American South. http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPR3,M1 http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=t... South-Side View of Slavery (1854) by Nehemiah Adams, a Unitarian minister and abolitionist. http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=titlepage http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=t... American Negro Slavery (1918) by Ulrich Phillips. http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=t...
wpietri 15y ago
No. A thousand times no. Guys make these comments either a) because they are irredeemable assholes, or b) they don't understand the harm they cause. If they are permanent jerks, firing them can and will help. For everybody else, then discussion is useful. There is no reason to accept this kind of bullshit, and I refuse to.
- mhartl 15y ago
  I think you misunderstand. Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. When crude behavior persists even in the face of a draconian legal environment, complaining about it or writing frustrated blog posts certainly won't fix it. Your situation is slightly different. As a CTO, you have the power to prevent this behavior in your sphere of influence. But fixing the tech industry in general is beyond your reach. You should also be aware that you face the other end of the cannon here. If a woman feels maltreated on your watch, you could be held liable even if you are not culpable. In a small startup, this could be enough to sink the ship. Perversely, this gives you an incentive not to hire women. Indeed, posts such as the OP also provide an incentive not to hire women. There's no defending boorish jerks, but beware of unintended consequences when you propose ways to punish them.
  - wpietri 15y ago
    Your notion of "rational" is weak. It's the small-minded, self-interested, narcissistic version of the term. Fixing this problem in the tech industry may or may not be beyond my reach. We'll see. But I will try as long as I'm involved in software. Hopefully I will have made a difference. But if I don't, that's still ok, because then I won't have been one of those assholes who stands around ignoring (or profiting from) injustice. If that's "irrational", then fine, I'm happy to be "irrational". And personally, I think that blog posts like this are absolutely a part of fixing the problem. Women's suffrage didn't happen because a bunch of old white men suddenly noticed the issue one day. It happened through an immense amount of communication, activism, and education. The original post is a fine contribution to that sort of activity.
    - 15y ago

by mhartl 15y ago

daenz 15y ago

Amen. Don't let the downvotes bother you, you're seeing 100% clearly and not blinded by the irrationality that seems to be filling this thread.

InclinedPlane 15y ago

It used to be acceptable to use the N-word in the workplace. Casually. With seriousness. Things change. Fuck acceptance.

mhartl 15y ago
Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  How do you know you lack sufficient power to effect change if you don't try?
  - daenz 15y ago
    Who said nobody tried? Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?
    - InclinedPlane 15y ago
      Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"?
      - daenz 15y ago
        > Uhhh, I'd smuggle them somewhere else where they could live free, duh. This isn't exactly the best example. Sure you would, buddy. Just like you're out there beating up the people who are oppressing the original poster, like fucking batman. > Also, are you seriously saying that you'd tell folks who will live their entire lives and die as slaves to just "hang in there"? Yeah, I would. Because if you have any foresight, you can see that its a transitional period, and is unsustainable, and is in the process of changing. I can help more people alive than I can dead for smuggling a few slaves out.
        DanBC 15y ago
        "Schindler's List" would have made a lousy movie if he just told people to "Hang in There".
        daenz 15y ago
        And who says he never did do that? You think he never came across people who were too risky to try to save? Why wasn't he able to save all the jews? My point was that it's pretty far fetched for anyone to believe InclinedPlane would risk his life saving slaves when he won't even risk his career trying to legally torpedo the original poster's workplace. It's posturing, nothing more.
- doidydoidy 15y ago
  "Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

hythloday 15y ago

And yet you have two people in this thread saying "I see myself in what you complain about and I don't like it". It's interesting that you draw from that "nothing can ever change" (my phrasing).

mhartl 15y ago
You put quotes around the phrase "nothing can ever change", and yet that phrase doesn't appear in the parent comment. I suggest restricting yourself to rebutting arguments I actually made.
- hythloday 15y ago
  How would you characterize the difference between "the problem is unfixable" and "nothing can ever change"? They are substansively the same position.
  - mhartl 15y ago
    I thought it was clear from context, but I've added a clarifying clause. The point is that, if firing people for commenting on low-cut dresses doesn't work, complaining about it in a blog post certainly isn't going to do the trick. The problem is unfixable using the means at the disposal of the OP. In this case, although the outcome is lamentable, leaving the industry may be a rational response.
    - hythloday 15y ago
      Firing people is clearly an extreme option; it might be worth asking kcunning if she felt that was an appropriate reaction (I'd guess not). Writing a blog post, on the other hand, has generated half a dozen people changing their minds about how much sexism they're prepared to put up with (ranging from "I am confronting my own active sexism and resolving to change it" to "I am more inclined to speak up to challenge active sexism when I see it"). Speaking for myself, it was a series of posts like this that gave me the confidence to start calling other men out when I saw active sexism take place. I suppose you could argue that everyone in this thread who is appearing to change their mind is lying, but that seems to be begging the question--purely on the responses I'd suggest that the preponderance of evidence is that writing blog posts does produce incremental change.

Jabbles 15y ago

Don't lighten up—accept You're asking someone to learn to live with being bullied and to accept discrimination. And through this endorsement of their behaviour you contribute to the problem. You are a horrible person.

daenz 15y ago
Just out of curiosity, if you went back in time to early America, would you rally some slaves together and tell them all not to put up with the shit from their owners? Would you call them cowards for not all trying to run away? Or would you tell them to "hang in there, things will get better"?
- Jabbles 15y ago
  Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. The situation isn't really comparable. Also, I'm not accusing Katie of cowardice.
  - mhartl 15y ago
    Slaves were in imminent danger of being killed for minor offences. Were they? I'd bet that everything you've ever read or seen about slavery was produced by abolitionists and their intellectual descendants. Perhaps this might slightly color your views on the subject. By the way, before you call me a horrible person again, please read carefully. Nothing in the above paragraph implies an endorsement of slavery.
    - Jabbles 15y ago
      Well, it's not my area of expertise... If you'd like to direct me to where I can read a more balanced view of the history of slavery I would be pleased to read it.
      - mhartl 15y ago
        Sure thing. The West Indies As They Are (1824) by Rev. Richard Bickell. It was written about slavery in Jamaica, where conditions were almost certainly worse than in the American South. http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPR3,M1 http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4QZYM7MOUcC&printsec=t... South-Side View of Slavery (1854) by Nehemiah Adams, a Unitarian minister and abolitionist. http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=titlepage http://books.google.com/books?id=sCg7P2c3W5MC&printsec=t... American Negro Slavery (1918) by Ulrich Phillips. http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1_n7O9KvIC&printsec=t...

wpietri 15y ago

No. A thousand times no. Guys make these comments either a) because they are irredeemable assholes, or b) they don't understand the harm they cause. If they are permanent jerks, firing them can and will help. For everybody else, then discussion is useful. There is no reason to accept this kind of bullshit, and I refuse to.

mhartl 15y ago
I think you misunderstand. Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change. When crude behavior persists even in the face of a draconian legal environment, complaining about it or writing frustrated blog posts certainly won't fix it. Your situation is slightly different. As a CTO, you have the power to prevent this behavior in your sphere of influence. But fixing the tech industry in general is beyond your reach. You should also be aware that you face the other end of the cannon here. If a woman feels maltreated on your watch, you could be held liable even if you are not culpable. In a small startup, this could be enough to sink the ship. Perversely, this gives you an incentive not to hire women. Indeed, posts such as the OP also provide an incentive not to hire women. There's no defending boorish jerks, but beware of unintended consequences when you propose ways to punish them.
- wpietri 15y ago
  Your notion of "rational" is weak. It's the small-minded, self-interested, narcissistic version of the term. Fixing this problem in the tech industry may or may not be beyond my reach. We'll see. But I will try as long as I'm involved in software. Hopefully I will have made a difference. But if I don't, that's still ok, because then I won't have been one of those assholes who stands around ignoring (or profiting from) injustice. If that's "irrational", then fine, I'm happy to be "irrational". And personally, I think that blog posts like this are absolutely a part of fixing the problem. Women's suffrage didn't happen because a bunch of old white men suddenly noticed the issue one day. It happened through an immense amount of communication, activism, and education. The original post is a fine contribution to that sort of activity.
  - 15y ago